What are your hopes for Adventure tri?

[Jaybird C]

Does Tri need to explain who people are? I doubt anyone's watching who doesn't know.

Depends on what you mean by "need".

tri's refusal to introduce a substantial portion of its cast within the bounds of its own story is in my understanding a weakness because that leaves tri dependent directly on 02 for the relevant information. At the same time, tri (it seems to me) clearly does not want 02 to matter too much, which leaves it in the bizarre and self-defeating position of simultaneously needing 02 and trying to hold it at arm's length.

It's also a deterrent to newcomers, and I have seen a few struggle to get into Digimon who wanted to because they started with tri.

i had expected actual plotholes from you, jaybird. Not more whining.

Alright.

When I first wrote out my response, it included a typically long-winded mini-essay mostly consisting of me trying to refine my own point about the nature of the plot hole, and in the process of bringing that to a conclusion, I realized that I was wrong.

This whole thing started because I was being overly silly about how we were still waiting for answers from the first movie and NekoHaruko took issue with my semantics. Maybe I could've used something like "tying up loose ends" instead. By the strict definition of plot-hole, I don't really have much. Not enough to really care about, anyway.

The actual issue I have here isn't actually a plot-hole, but a gap in the narrative foundation, which I point out due to the fact that, judging from both NekoHaruko's and Marc's posts, I've given the impression that I consider the 02 matter as a whole to be a plot hole -- which isn't the case at all, so shame on me for being unclear. As I was discussing with TMS up top, tri defers heavily to 02 where it doesn't care to explain things (i.e. it never actually introduces Daisuke and co. because it expects you to already know them), and because tri fails in one particular case to provide a specific piece of background information (that is, what the main cast knows about the 02 kids), I am exactly pedantic enough to treat that as tri deferring to 02 yet again, out of which I derive that plot hole I was so proud of.

In any case: NekoHaruko and Marc are in the right, and I'm in the wrong. I yield.

If nothing else, I get an object lesson in not trying to debate people at 2:30 in the morning. At least, not without coffee and a better dictionary of hardboiled slang.

 

[SharpeBB]

Does Tri need to explain who people are? I doubt anyone's watching who doesn't know.

Depends on what you mean by "need".

tri's refusal to introduce a substantial portion of its cast within the bounds of its own story is in my understanding a weakness because that leaves tri dependent directly on 02 for the relevant information. At the same time, tri (it seems to me) clearly does not want 02 to matter too much, which leaves it in the bizarre and self-defeating position of simultaneously needing 02 and trying to hold it at arm's length.

It's also a deterrent to newcomers, and I have seen a few struggle to get into Digimon who wanted to because they started with tri.

But doesn't the fact that Tri has included bits and pieces of elements from 02 mean it does still matter in Tri? Just because those aspects haven't been a main focus, they're still there and relevant. The 02 kids being defeated, Takeru updating all the DigiDestined around the world, everyone believing Ken has gone bad again, the fact that all these have been shown to me says 02 very much DOES matter. Just because we don't have all the answers yet, doesn't mean that something is irrelevant.

And while I am sympathetic to the idea of new comers struggling to get into Tri, it's the third season of Adventure. You can't expect the writers to retell everything for the benefit of people who have never seen the show before. A good portion of the onus has to be on the viewer if they don't know the background. You wouldn't go into any other serialized story part way through and expect to understand or be told everything.

 

[Libra]

From what I have seen so far, people and other characters in digimon series, even the most fearsome villains are just a bunch of idiots living in several interconnected worlds. Greymon and Parrotmon fought with each other and only eight kids saw that fight. Then digimon invaded the human world again and again throughout adventure and 02 and just a paramilitary group under guidance of Gennai formed to oppose them and they even didn't revealed their true identity to adventure and 02 kids the whole time knowing their very lives might be in great danger. The other human beings know nothing about digimon despite the invasions as if their memories were all deleted sometime or their all have severe memory problems. When fighting Appocalymon, a portal between the two world was right there but only the families of the eight kids saw the battle. The kids are not known to be the saviors of the mankind.
So what's the matter with the fact that the eight kids do also have memory and cognitive problems and can't understand the importance of 02 kids' sudden disappearance, and Makie's black D3.

But the most important fact is that tri. was really successful in making the fans crave for a sequel about 02 kids. If they really wanna make a sequel to 02, this seemingly poor writing could be the best scenario made for this purpose. And let's face it. 02 kids are not important at all when the focus is on the original 8. They are juat a hindrance, their evolution logics are different. They lack the crests and Ken's does not function as the others. And there are millions of chosen children in 02. Every kid and at the final episode every adult and old geezers and dead people are coupled with a digimon. Showing all of the kids on the planet Earth as 02 chosen children was disgusting enough by itself, but it was used also to ruin the final battle with Malomyotismon. It was as if an army of ants was hunting a really big prey. I'm sure I could find myself among the kids in that battle and all my friends and relatives. That was silly. I hope they don't ruin the tri. by using all of human beings against a single enemy. But a sequel for 02 telling another story about them or even as a prequel ro tri. would be really awesome and I would love such an idea.

 

[Jaybird C]

But doesn't the fact that Tri has included bits and pieces of elements from 02 mean it does still matter in Tri?

Remember, what I said was that tri didn't want the 02 kids to matter too much. The fact that there is an ongoing 02 subplot means that, yes, they do matter to the story, in whatever small way. However, the fact that tri is nearly at pains to keep that subplot from having any emotional weight or substance (nobody even misses the 02 kids until the Kaiser decides Tsukushima is a walk-on campus, everything Imperialdramon, Takeru and Hikari's abandoned sleuthing attempt, Yamato's satisfaction that the government is looking into things, etc.) seems to me to indicate that tri does not intend to concern itself too much with the matter. (Note that the common complaint among 02 fans is that tri isn't giving the 02 matter enough attention).

If anything, given how short and unemotional most of these scenes are, I suspect tri's creative staff considers the 02 subplot to be an unwanted distraction from the main story.

And while I am sympathetic to the idea of new comers struggling to get into Tri, it's the third season of Adventure. You can't expect the writers to retell everything for the benefit of people who have never seen the show before. A good portion of the onus has to be on the viewer if they don't know the background.

There's a difference between introducing characters and "retelling everything"; 02 was able to introduce Taichi's generation as the "older Chosen" in the second episode without going over every detail of their first adventure. It would not be at all difficult for tri to straight-up say "there are other Japanese Chosen" who are unavailable for whatever reason tri might have dreamed up. We don't need every detail, just a bare minimum.

That said, like above, I suspect tri doesn't actually want to say (that is, to have the main characters acknowledge outright) that there's a handful of missing former friends and allies because to acknowledge that early on would emphasize that absence and distract further from the main story.

You wouldn't go into any other serialized story part way through and expect to understand or be told everything.

I don't think that counts as an objection. tri isn't merely "part way through" anything, it's a complete work in its own right. It just doesn't feel obligated to establish itself as one, for whatever reason. Again, there's a difference between explaining who a handful of plot-relevant characters are and telling us everything about them. We only ought to know what's relevant to the beginning of the story.

 

[SharpeBB]

But a lack of focus does not mean a lack of relevance. The fact that right away they show the 02 kids being defeated, as well as keeping the mystery alive, I think does imply that they're very relevant to the story. If they didn't want them to be relevant they could just say, "Oh, they're just away on vacation" or something. But they have made their disappearance a part of the story, even if it hasn't been fully explored.

And of course there's a difference between introducing and retelling, but they already had to reintroduce 8 (well, 16) characters, before adding Meiko, Meicoomon, Maki, and Daigo. Adding in information about the 02 kids would have really bogged things down, especially since they aren't the main characters in this story. And seeing as they did do a "Hey, this guys have been beaten", they have established there are other characters who are absent, even if new comers don't know their names.

But Tri was never marketed as a stand-alone entity. It was clearly a continuation. While it is it's own story, it's still part of a larger story. I would even argue that the lack of 02 kids, and the introduction of new important characters really does establish Tri as a work in it's own right. But it is still dependent on Adventure and 02. They've brought us in to the new part of the story and guess what, they told us what's relevant to the beginning of the story.

And they did explain what's relevant to the beginning of the story. Just because you don't like that the 02 kids weren't a part of that, doesn't mean they didn't do it.

 

[Jaybird C]

But a lack of focus does not mean a lack of relevance.

Where did I say they were irrelevant? Literally the second sentence from my last post affirmed that they mattered to the story.

Adding in information about the 02 kids would have really bogged things down, especially since they aren't the main characters in this story.

I disagree. tri spent the first two movies moving at a snail's pace, and meanwhile the 02 subplot has gone absolutely nowhere. At four movies in, we have nothing in the way of hard data on the missing chosen* and the last real development was that the main cast, we guess, is now aware that Daisuke and the others are missing and probably in trouble -- something the audience has known since the beginning.

The only way to meaningfully bog any of that down would be for nothing to happen at all. We could easily swap out a chunk of onsen fluff for a two- or three-minute conversation on the history of the group. At least then we could make sense of their behavior from the Kaiser's appearance onward.

*The lack of hard data on the chosen at this point is not, in itself, a bad thing.

But Tri was never marketed as a stand-alone entity. It was clearly a continuation. While it is it's own story, it's still part of a larger story. I would even argue that the lack of 02 kids, and the introduction of new important characters really does establish Tri as a work in it's own right. But it is still dependent on Adventure and 02.

None of this contradicts anything I've said. Yes, tri is both its own story and the third in a series. We have absolutely no quarrel on that point.

They've brought us in to the new part of the story and guess what, they told us what's relevant to the beginning of the story.

And they did explain what's relevant to the beginning of the story. Just because you don't like that the 02 kids weren't a part of that, doesn't mean they didn't do it.

I contend they haven't told us anything of the sort. tri throws a vague but terribly dramatic scene about the 02 Chosen at us in the first five minutes of the movie, which it then highlights by not talking about it, and I'm not sure how that explains anything, much less why the missing kids aren't relevant to that part of the story. As a matter of fact, since tri apparently expects us to know who the missing kids were and that they were formerly close friends and allies to the main cast, that same main cast's new lack of concern for them emphasizes that something is wrong at that point in time.

I contend also that, yes, we ought to have known what the group's perspective was on the 02 kids so we could make sense of their behavior, ideally before the main cast had to actually interact with them. It's that lack of perspective that keeps us from making heads or tails of the Taichi and company's behavior.

 

[SharpeBB]

But a lack of focus does not mean a lack of relevance.

Where did I say they were irrelevant? Literally the second sentence from my last post affirmed that they mattered to the story.

I never said you claimed they were irrelevant. You said they don't matter much (or have a lack of relevance), while I disagree. It's just slightly different wording.

Adding in information about the 02 kids would have really bogged things down, especially since they aren't the main characters in this story.

I disagree. tri spent the first two movies moving at a snail's pace, and meanwhile the 02 subplot has gone absolutely nowhere. At four movies in, we have nothing in the way of hard data on the missing chosen* and the last real development was that the main cast, we guess, is now aware that Daisuke and the others are missing and probably in trouble -- something the audience has known since the beginning.

The only way to meaningfully bog any of that down would be for nothing to happen at all. We could easily swap out Meiko sneaking a peek at Taichi's junk for a two- or three-minute conversation on the history of the group. At least then we could make sense of their behavior from the Kaiser's appearance onward.

*The lack of hard data on the chosen at this point is not, in itself, a bad thing.

So you think that adding more information about the 02 kids wouldn't have made it move slower?

Because they decided to add Meiko, they had to take time to develop her character and relationship with the group. A group that, like it or not, does not include the 02 kids at the moment. So since the story of Tri has to focus more on Meiko, who is a main character we know little about, than the 02 kids, who in Tri are not main characters, and we do know a lot about them.

I'm not saying I like it, I'm just saying that adding that information in would slow things down even more.

But Tri was never marketed as a stand-alone entity. It was clearly a continuation. While it is it's own story, it's still part of a larger story. I would even argue that the lack of 02 kids, and the introduction of new important characters really does establish Tri as a work in it's own right. But it is still dependent on Adventure and 02.

None of this contradicts anything I've said. Yes, tri is both its own story and the third in a series. We have absolutely no quarrel on that point.

Except earlier, it seemed to me you were saying that Tri had to do more for newbies, because it wasn't "merely 'part way through' anything". I was just saying that because it is still a continuation, they were never going to explain everything over again, because the majority of the people will know the story.

They've brought us in to the new part of the story and guess what, they told us what's relevant to the beginning of the story.

And they did explain what's relevant to the beginning of the story. Just because you don't like that the 02 kids weren't a part of that, doesn't mean they didn't do it.

I contend they haven't told us anything of the sort. tri throws a vague but terribly dramatic scene about the 02 Chosen at us in the first five minutes of the movie, which it then highlights by not talking about it, and I'm not sure how that explains anything, much less why the missing kids aren't relevant to that part of the story. As a matter of fact, since tri apparently expects us to know who the missing kids were and that they were formerly close friends and allies to the main cast, that same main cast's new lack of concern for them emphasizes that something is wrong at that point in time.

I contend also that, yes, we ought to have known what the group's perspective was on the 02 kids so we could make sense of their behavior, ideally before the main cast had to actually interact with them. It's that lack of perspective that keeps us from making heads or tails of the Taichi and company's behavior.

I feel like you're meaning that they haven't explained anything, rather than they haven't told us anything. Because they have told us what matters. What matters is the 02 kids are MIA. And the audience is aware of that. Just because we don't know the why, doesn't mean we don't know the what.

I do agree, that it would be nice to know what the status between the Adventure kids and the 02 kids is. It would clear up a lot of confusion. But, that confusion may be deliberate on the part of the writers. I still have faith/hope that they will explain some of this in the remainder of Tri. Because if they don't then that'll just be really stupid.

 

[Jaybird C]

I never said you claimed they were irrelevant. You said they don't matter much (or have a lack of relevance), while I disagree. It's just slightly different wording.

Ah. Your "lack of relevance" was unclear. "Lack" also indicates the complete absence of a quality, not just a smaller quantity. Using "less relevance" or something would've been more precise.

Back on topic, tri's treatment of the 02 kids isn't simply keeping them out of focus. tri has actively avoided investing them with any emotional significance. The cast gives every indication that the missing kids largely aren't worth their concern and interactions that by rights ought to be terribly dramatic simply aren't, even before we point out the 02 subplot itself has a blatant structural flaw that makes what little plot-relevance it has basically unintelligible.

I'm just saying that adding that information in would slow things down even more.

I don't think you read what I wrote, because I didn't say tri should have tacked on extra time to what they already had; I specifically suggested they might have altered or replaced some of what happened in the first two movies, specifically giving the onsen trip as an example. This would have: (1) mitigated some of the fluff by having something directly plot-relevant happen, (2) justified the currently inexplicable behavior of the main cast, (3) cut down on the continuity lockout, and possibly even (4) forced tri to get a move on by denying it the means to play coy here. I'm not sure how "same run-time, but with slightly more actual plot and substantially more audience understanding" counts as "slowing things down".

And you behave as if Meiko's arc and relationships are Holy Writ that couldn't be altered without doing damage to her as a character. Not so. Meiko's character arc -- any character arc -- is simply a sequence of actions or decisions that chart a character's growth as he attempts to solve a problem, likewise for any relationship arc. Every part of Meiko's story, either her own or the relationship she shares with the original cast, that is not explicitly one of those actions or decisions is merely fluff and therefore fungible.

Except earlier, it seemed to me you were saying that Tri had to do more for newbies, because it wasn't "merely 'part way through' anything". I was just saying that because it is still a continuation, they were never going to explain everything over again, because the majority of the people will know the story.

Where I come from, introducing the cast members isn't "doing more", it's "mildly competent story-telling".

I think I'm obligated to point out, incidentally, that you aren't actually arguing anything. If I say, "X is bad, because Y," it's not a valid counter to say, "X is the way things are." To properly counter me, you have to demonstrate that either Y isn't true, that it doesn't really make X bad, or that it's completely irrelevant in the first place.

Also, 'newbies'? Really? C'mon, are we so far gone that we've changed the subject from "tri not explaining who the 02 cast is is unfortunate but mostly acceptable, because most of the people who are even interested already know them" to "tri explaining who the 02 cast is would be pointlessly catering to the n00bs"?

I mean, you could argue that. You are entirely free to argue that. I think it would be hilarious if you did.

I feel like you're meaning that they haven't explained anything, rather than they haven't told us anything.

That's because I do mean that. You, two posts ago:

And they did explain what's relevant to the beginning of the story.

I'll admit, when you used the word "explain", I honestly thought you meant "explain". If you didn't actually mean "explain", then I hope you weren't expecting me to know that.

Because they have told us what matters. What matters is the 02 kids are MIA. And the audience is aware of that. Just because we don't know the why, doesn't mean we don't know the what.

I'm getting the distinct impression you haven't actually read what I've written. I specifically noted that we have no hard data on the missing 02 kids and that that is not a problem, here -- you even quoted me saying it! The missing 02 kids are not the problem with the 02 subplot. Ironically, I admit.

That said, you still seem to be under the impression that tri has definitively indicated somewhere what is and isn't relevant information, and the plain fact is they haven't.

But, that confusion may be deliberate on the part of the writers. I still have faith/hope that they will explain some of this in the remainder of Tri. Because if they don't then that'll just be really stupid.

Yes, that's another problem. If that is all deliberate, than that means tri is actively screwing with the audience, and that's... well, let's just say that that's no good. Not surprising, but not good.

From what I have seen so far, people and other characters in digimon series, even the most fearsome villains are just a bunch of idiots living in several interconnected worlds. Greymon and Parrotmon fought with each other and only eight kids saw that fight.

Also, completely passed this over. My bad.

Actually, scores if not hundreds of children saw that fight. Only eight were chosen. (That one is justified as a bombing by the authorities). (What I'd like to know is if the Original Original Chosen saw it, too).

Then digimon invaded the human world again and again throughout adventure and 02 and just a paramilitary group under guidance of Gennai formed to oppose them and they even didn't revealed their true identity to adventure and 02 kids the whole time knowing their very lives might be in great danger. The other human beings know nothing about digimon despite the invasions as if their memories were all deleted sometime or their all have severe memory problems. When fighting Appocalymon, a portal between the two world was right there but only the families of the eight kids saw the battle. The kids are not known to be the saviors of the mankind.

That's because 02 lacked the world-building chops to handle that kind of development, so it pretended everyone just forgot.

Has the shadow organization been there the whole time? I thought it was only recent.

So what's the matter with the fact that the eight kids do also have memory and cognitive problems and can't understand the importance of 02 kids' sudden disappearance, and Makie's black D3.

Mostly that it would be inartistic, unexplained, and generally nonsensical.

But the most important fact is that tri. was really successful in making the fans crave for a sequel about 02 kids. If they really wanna make a sequel to 02, this seemingly poor writing could be the best scenario made for this purpose.

That tri deliberately shot itself in the foot in order to drum up hype for a 02 sequel would, I'm pretty sure, fall into the Magnificent Bastard category. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that the majority fanbase cares much for an 02 sequel. Heck, I don't particularly care for an 02 sequel. It's certainly nice to think about, but tri doesn't give me much cause for hope at this point.

 

[SharpeBB]

Okay Jaybird I'm just going to make one last post on this for now, because evidently I'm not explaining myself well. And just because I disagree with what you're saying, doesn't mean I didn't read what you wrote.

I'm not saying the way they wrote Meiko's story couldn't be changed, but the fact that they have Meiko as a main character is more important than the 02 kids (who are not main characters in Tri), means they have to give her more focus. Don't act like I'm treating Meiko's story as "Holy Writ" when clearly, all I was stating before is that it has more relevance than the 02 kids. And could things have been done differently to include more info on the 02 kids? Absolutely. I never never meant to imply it couldn't be done. But because the writers decided to play the story out the way they did, I feel that adding more info would slow things down. Because every time you give more information, it also can raise more questions. And I feel we have enough questions that need answering right now.

Moving on, you were the one who brought up newcomers in the first place. I was addressing your point there. Me using 'newbies' was simple apathy, not condescension. I was never trying to argue that it was a good that the writers didn't give more explanation. All I was saying was that the writers weren't going to invest more time in it, because the majority of people do know the story already. My original point was that people who enter a story midway through wouldn't expect to have everything explained to them, because very rarely will writers explain everything to them.

I'll eat crow on the 'explain vs told' issue, as I didn't say that they were explaining things simply. However, I am not under the impression that Tri has told us what information is and isn't relevant. How you got there, I don't know. But they have told us what is relevant, in that the 02 kids are missing. I am fully aware that the explanation is relevant information. Again, I never said it wasn't. But not having that information isn't preventing the main story from moving forward. As I've said before, if we never get it, that will obviously be an issue. But for now, I am willing to wait and assume we will get it.

Tri creating confusion is not nearly that big of a problem. It's trying to entice them to keep watching. It's trying to get fans to want the answers to questions. It's a risk to be sure, because it has the potential to upset many fans (which it obviously has). But it only becomes a real problem if those questions are never answered. We still have 4-5 hours of story left. That's plenty of time to answer a lot, if not all, of those questions.

I agree that Tri could have done a lot of things differently. I agree that having more information would be nice. I agree that if we never get a lot of that information, than Tri will truly be burned. I understand that you wish they had given more information on many issues. But we're only two thirds of the way through the story, so we can hopefully still get some. But I'll make you an offer, if we go through part 5 and 6 and they never explain why the adventure crew didn't know about the 02 kids missing, or why they weren't keeping in touch, or any gaping plot holes around the 02 kids (because they will officially be plot holes at that point), I will be right there to support you in your grievances. Because I will likely agree with them. Just do me a solid, and remember that things still could turn around.

 

[Velocifaptor]

Right now I can totally see someone from Toei reading through this thread and having a good laugh. As it is, I hope for some resolution regarding Daisuke and co. by movie 6, or I'm gonna be mega pissed at the way this series turned out. However, I am currently on the more optimistic side of things, and agree with SharpeBB that it is too early to judge tri. as a series.

 

[Gigamon23]

I haven't bothered to read through all the long posts, but the bits and peices I have looked at do help me appreciate the frustration some folks have with Tri. I will admit that the pacing of the story does seem to be a bit off, in that it feels like we should have a clearer understanding of what everything is really about, but I'm sure some of that has to do with the series being released in huge chunks with lots of time in between, rather than as an ongoing series.

They've definitely made promises in their storytelling that will need to be resolved by the end of it all, and the further it appears to push the mounting list of promises and unanswered questions, the more nervous I think you can be justified in feeling because it's harder to wrap up everything in a generally satisfying way in that situation.

That said, I'm still rather enjoying it, and I especially want to know more about the original chosen.

 

[Jaybird C]

Okay Jaybird I'm just going to make one last post on this for now, because evidently I'm not explaining myself well. And just because I disagree with what you're saying, doesn't mean I didn't read what you wrote.

Alright, then, this'll be my final response to you. Sorry we couldn't communicate better.

I'm not saying the way they wrote Meiko's story couldn't be changed, but the fact that they have Meiko as a main character is more important than the 02 kids (who are not main characters in Tri), means they have to give her more focus.

I perfectly understand that tri. considers Meiko one of the principal characters. I've never challenged that, and I don't spite her the significance.

However, when I elaborated on ways tri. might have solved the problems in its subplot, such as changing certain parts of the onsen fluff for a short conversation that would have introduced the missing kids and explained their absence, you objected and went off on a tangent about how tri. was focusing on Meiko's significance because she was a main character and more important than the absent 02 kids as part of your objection. Which is true, but irrelevant.

You speak as if you believe taking the three minutes max for tri. to correct a specific piece of bad writing in the 02 subplot (and I can think of ways to do it in roughly 30 to 45 seconds) would have somehow damaged Meiko's significance or character, because why else would you keep bringing up how important she is to the story when it's almost completely off-topic?

I was never trying to argue that it was a good that the writers didn't give more explanation. All I was saying was that the writers weren't going to invest more time in it, because the majority of people do know the story already. My original point was that people who enter a story midway through wouldn't expect to have everything explained to them, because very rarely will writers explain everything to them.

Okay, but why bring it up at all? You keep answering some criticism of mine with a justification of the thing I'm criticizing, but one that doesn't actually challenge my argument. I say "X is bad, because Y" and you say "W is why X happens"; it's a kind of Argument from Motives, and it makes no sense.

However, I am not under the impression that Tri has told us what information is and isn't relevant. How you got there, I don't know. But they have told us what is relevant, in that the 02 kids are missing.

"How I got there" is your writing unfortunately tends to be repetitive and equivocal, and so you tend to phrase different thoughts and concepts in very similar ways, making it hard to understand you. You do it here, for example, when you say both, "Tri [hasn't] told us what information is and isn't relevant," and, "they have told us what is relevant," only I can tell what the difference is this time because you gave me enough context with, "in that the 02 kids are missing".

Now, as to the content of your objection, this partly has to do with the fact that whenever I mentioned tri. ought to have introduced and explained who the 02 kids were for [insert reason here] you started saying things like writers don't "retell everything" and the audience shouldn't expect to "be told everything", as if I were calling for some in-depth history on the 02 kids, which was never the case.

That was why I pointed out that we only need the information "relevant to the beginning of the story" for "a handful of plot-relevant characters", by which I meant, again, the at most three minutes of conversation introducing the 02 kids and explaining why the main cast behaves the way they do about them.

And then you went off about how "they did explain what's relevant to the beginning of the story. Just because you don't like that the 02 kids weren't a part of that, doesn't mean they didn't do it." And I have been trying very hard to figure out what the Hell, Michigan you're talking about, because now you're telling me "they have told us what is relevant, in that the 02 kids are missing."

Tri creating confusion is not nearly that big of a problem. It's trying to entice them to keep watching. It's trying to get fans to want the answers to questions.

It's not a crippling problem, no, but it has made an entire sub-plot impossible to understand. If tri. is doing that on purpose, than I object very strongly.

But I'll make you an offer, if we go through part 5 and 6 and they never explain why the adventure crew didn't know about the 02 kids missing, or why they weren't keeping in touch, or any gaping plot holes around the 02 kids (because they will officially be plot holes at that point), I will be right there to support you in your grievances. Because I will likely agree with them. Just do me a solid, and remember that things still could turn around.

Okay, now I'm starting to be concerned, and I'm being earnest about that. Am I somehow causing you harm, by criticizing tri.? Because I'm starting to get the impression that the fact that I'm criticizing it at all upsets you.

I'll be fine however tri. ends, that's not be a problem for me. But you appear to be bargaining with me not to criticize tri. so much, and that's concerning.

Right now I can totally see someone from Toei reading through this thread and having a good laugh.

Well, at least somebody would be enjoying it.

However, I am currently on the more optimistic side of things, and agree with SharpeBB that it is too early to judge tri. as a series.

As a whole, no, of course not, it's impossible to fully analyze or criticize tri. in it's current state. The only thing I've actually criticized is a few specific aspects of the subplot and the negative effects they've been having on the rest of the story.

Look, tri could potentially pull off some absolutely amazing ending that explains everything about the new logistics of the 02 squad's relationship with the main cast, justifies perfectly why the main cast is so damn unconcerned and generally OOC, tells us what even happened to the missing kids (and their digimon!) and how they were affected by the reboot, and has absolutely zero bullshit -- it won't fix the subplot, but it will improve things substantially. I'm just not sure it can do all that and be a happy ending at the same time.

 

[Jay Ukyou]

Tri's writing problem in general is that a lot things seem to just -happen- without much build-up and then without a lot of explanation. Except for character growth, which it's mostly fine at.

But the big plot beats - the 02 kids, Alphamon's appearance, Maki/Daigo's significance, Meikuumon's everything, the Crests, Leomon's death, Mysterious Man's actions - these all sort of come at the children (and the audience) in a barrage of challenges to overcome, but without much backstory or buildup.

I understand motivations for this - it creates the sense of mystery/disorientation and has nice shock value. These are the positive things that come from this style of storytelling. However, this kind of storytelling also tends to be somewhat shallow and forgettable if it isn't expanded upon or grounded in an emotional core. Luckily for tri, it DOES have decent character growth that can be thought of as the emotional core. This makes all the rapid plot beats less important to be fully fleshed out right away - they aren't the core of the story.

Is that satisfying to someone who prefers a more well-thought-out plot with lots of interlocking pieces that are gradually explored before falling into place? No, it is pretty terrible for someone who wants that style of storytelling. But that does not make tri's method inherently bad. Especially with one more movie to both finish the payoff for the emotional core AND tie it to the various plot threads.

(But dear god it is frustrating at times due to the "several months between releases" format!)

 

[MarcFBR]

While I disagree with various elements of your post (arguing about tri.'s writing in general is spinning in circles at this point to be honest), one part specifically I wanted to comment on.

tri.'s plot IS well thought out, with build up (at least to the best of what we know, it's always hard to say how well thought out something is before it's over, especially when it uses misinformation and not giving you answers as part of it's writing) it simply isn't SPELLED out.


There are plenty of pieces, it simply doesn't put them together for you as it goes on (you do comment on this aspect of it), minus when the story itself decides it's necessary to tell you, and a number of people haven't handled that well going back to Part 1.


But they are being explored, they just aren't being explained 'when' people want them to be.


This isn't unique to Digimon, but it also isn't a writing flaw (which isn't to say tri. doesn't have writing flaws.)


As an example, people didn't like the explanation for how Sherlock survived in the BBC series Sherlock, which was

Spoiler

we don't know. We're given an answer, multiple answers even... but they all appear to be wrong.

Or as another example (with Moffat again actually...)

That many people kept thinking Doctor Who in the era of the 11th Doctor 'forgot' about plot elements that were mentioned early on, when they were all bits mentioned to some degree as those seasons went on, simply never clarified and tied up, and then effectively 'everything' got wrapped up in the end (I was quite happy with how it was done, others less so, but the pieces did all fit together, it's just a matter of if you were happy with and accepted the answers given at the end.)

 

[SharpeBB]

Okay, now I'm starting to be concerned, and I'm being earnest about that. Am I somehow causing you harm, by criticizing tri.? Because I'm starting to get the impression that the fact that I'm criticizing it at all upsets you.

I'll be fine however tri. ends, that's not be a problem for me. But you appear to be bargaining with me not to criticize tri. so much, and that's concerning.

Don't get ahead of yourself. I just have better things to do than spend my time debating in circles. All I'm asking is that you remember things can still get better, which you have acknowledged.

I will admit that the pacing of the story does seem to be a bit off, in that it feels like we should have a clearer understanding of what everything is really about, but I'm sure some of that has to do with the series being released in huge chunks with lots of time in between, rather than as an ongoing series.

(But dear god it is frustrating at times due to the "several months between releases" format!)

I definitely agree with the two of you on this. If Tri were a weekly, half hour installment, the story would have been finished weeks after Part 2 was released, and months before Part 3 (assuming there would have been roughly 24 episodes). Somewhere around April/May 2016. Instead, I'm assuming it'll be somewhere in 2018 that Tri will end (there could be a quick turn around on Part 6, but I doubt it). So we're gonna be at 2 and a half years or so, instead of 6 months. That's a long time to wait for answers, and we're just not accustomed to that from Digimon. If the movie format was what they had always done, I think there would be a lot less agitation.

 

[Imperial]

After 4 movies (and a summary of the 5th) there's kind of nothing I'm really hoping for anymore. All that's left for me to want are "NEW" digimon.
BlitzGreymon, CrescGarurumon, and Omegamon Alter-S would be amazing. I had hoped for Chaosdramon and Gigaseadramon for part 4. Anyway, that's all I really want. Not expecting it, but it would be cool for me.

 

[Veeshadow]

tri.'s plot IS well thought out, with build up (at least to the best of what we know, it's always hard to say how well thought out something is before it's over, especially when it uses misinformation and not giving you answers as part of it's writing) it simply isn't SPELLED out.

If there is anything to complain, it's the pacing... The 4 movies can blend into just 5 TV episodes on fast-paced 5pb animes (Steins Gate/Occultic Nine). We can complain as well if Tri was fast-paced but the problem is within 4 movies it's really slow pacing with a lot of unnecessary scenes happened leaving potential build up/explanations.

Let's take example from Summer activities and Camping section from movie 2/4 why they animate 20 minutes of this? If we pretend to make season 01 episode when Hikari got sick then this will happened on Tri team logic: Taichi and others have meals, Digimons gathering stuff, they have cooking activities, and several hours later Hikari got poisoned because of allergy, then flashback happened including doctor's advice and Tentomon say that medicine is exist on Digital world to be continued...

Okay now to the real story we got: you can just make Hikari just fell and got fever, just brief explanation, and the story moved on.... You got Izzy's intelligence, you got Sora's care like Hikari's sister, You got Takeru's being heroic to evacuate girls. Short scenes but so meaningful even when that episode use Taichi and Hikari as main focus... An easy comparison how tri story writer messed something....

I definitely agree with the two of you on this. If Tri were a weekly, half hour installment, the story would have been finished weeks after Part 2 was released, and months before Part 3 (assuming there would have been roughly 24 episodes). Somewhere around April/May 2016. Instead, I'm assuming it'll be somewhere in 2018 that Tri will end (there could be a quick turn around on Part 6, but I doubt it). So we're gonna be at 2 and a half years or so, instead of 6 months. That's a long time to wait for answers, and we're just not accustomed to that from Digimon. If the movie format was what they had always done, I think there would be a lot less agitation.

Another thing to consider is how you can make episode format for each character. I can expect about 1vs1 battle to many infected Digimons instead just bunch of Kuwagamon, while the plot pacing is still slow it's acceptable with similar format to season 1 and 2... They can insert some stupid plot where Digimon need to re-learn Digivolves and expanded to Mega levels after....

 

[MarcFBR]

tri.'s plot IS well thought out, with build up (at least to the best of what we know, it's always hard to say how well thought out something is before it's over, especially when it uses misinformation and not giving you answers as part of it's writing) it simply isn't SPELLED out.

If there is anything to complain, it's the pacing... The 4 movies can blend into just 5 TV episodes on fast-paced 5pb animes (Steins Gate/Occultic Nine). We can complain as well if Tri was fast-paced but the problem is within 4 movies it's really slow pacing with a lot of unnecessary scenes happened leaving potential build up/explanations.

The issue I have with complaints of how easy it could be to compress tri. is that the argument could be made about 'anything' if you are willing to change things. If you don't like the pacing that's fine, you're allowed to, but the stuff you define as unnecessary is necessary and important to many of the people watching.

Look how often 50 episode anime series' end up edited into 3 movies (or how MASSIVE books can be compressed into comparatively much shorter films.) It's done, and at times the end result may even be better, but it does mean you are inherently watching a different 'thing' that has different goals in how it was put together.


If you think the primary point of tri. is the story of the virus and the battles, well... I'm not going to change your mind, because that's what the story is to you.

But it's been made pretty clear the primary 'thing' for tri. is the characters, how they are growing up, how they relate to eachother, etc.

That's the actual 'main' story being told. The overall adventure/mystery/etc. is simply what they are using to put the characters into the situations that create the character elements that is the core of the tale.

 

[Jaybird C]

Tri's writing problem in general is that a lot things seem to just -happen- without much build-up and then without a lot of explanation.

I wouldn't call that a writing problem. There's nothing particularly illegitimate about a series of unexplained things happening to the main characters. It can be vexing after a while, sure (especially where an explanation is called for), but it's still technically fair. You could even create fiction about events that are never explained if, for example, the story is about learning to deal with unexplained events (it would be hard to pull off, because you would need some things still explained for the sake of sheer intelligibility).

Matter of fact, I can think of two cases where I wouldn't have minded knowing less; Determination has a couple of moments that I'm pretty sure were placed in so that it could be more mysterious in the here-and-now (relative to its release), but, when viewed in light of the whole story, that end up being fairly blatant foreshadowing that ends up undercutting specific plot twists that would have been better served without. Which is not uncommon to the franchise, I admit.

But the big plot beats - the 02 kids, Alphamon's appearance, Maki/Daigo's significance, Meikuumon's everything, the Crests, Leomon's death, Mysterious Man's actions - these all sort of come at the children (and the audience) in a barrage of challenges to overcome, but without much backstory or buildup.

It all just keeps piling up, doesn't it?

Among those, the only real plot point I have any serious objection to (outside a certain structural flaw) is Leomon's death, and even then only as a matter of artistic sensibility. (Two Minutes Hate: Leomon dying is a franchise in-joke. It's Digimon's premiere cliche. You aren't serving your super-dramatic moment when half the audience wants to giggle). It's not technically illegal, but it risked an awful lot of the emotional impact.

However, this kind of storytelling also tends to be somewhat shallow and forgettable if it isn't expanded upon or grounded in an emotional core. Luckily for tri, it DOES have decent character growth that can be thought of as the emotional core. This makes all the rapid plot beats less important to be fully fleshed out right away - they aren't the core of the story.

The way I was taught, it would be inaccurate to describe it as the emotional "core"; the emotional aspect (or "heart") built on the growing relationships of the principal characters is not inherently more important than the logical aspect (or "plot") built on the actions and reactions of the whole cast. Any story without both is incomplete, hence the impression of being shallow. It needs heart so people care, but it also needs plot in order to make sense of the things that happen; any story can emphasize either according to preference.

Now, outside of that pedantic technical point, I mostly agree with this -- I respect tri attempting to create such a complex set of relationship arcs, between individual members of the chosen, between the chosen as a whole and Meiko, and between Meiko and Maicoomon, though certain arcs being apparently irrelevant to the actual plot is no good (poor Mimi's arc is situated almost entirely between actual plot points).

Don't get ahead of yourself.

No problem; meant no offense. The appeal just caught me off guard.

 

[Jay Ukyou]

The way I was taught, it would be inaccurate to describe it as the emotional "core"; the emotional aspect (or "heart") built on the growing relationships of the principal characters is not inherently more important than the logical aspect (or "plot") built on the actions and reactions of the whole cast. Any story without both is incomplete, hence the impression of being shallow. It needs heart so people care, but it also needs plot in order to make sense of the things that happen; any story can emphasize either according to preference.

I agree with most of what you said in your post. But I think this particular bit is a bit off. Logical plot being 'necessary' is very much a western school of thought (and even then, not universally). There is so much Japanese media that goes for a more... impressionistic style of storytelling. Digimon isn't wholly impressionistic obviously, but to say that there's some rule that the creators have to care about the logistics of the story when their focus is clearly on the interpersonal emotional drama comes off as being from a very limited perspective. You made it clear you're talking about your own background in learning about storytelling, and I respect that. Hell, I honestly agree with it. But it doesn't seem to be the way most Japanese writers (and almost certainly not Tri's writers!) go about planning their stories.