Unpopular opinions and rants about the Digimon franchize.

Tortoiseshel

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I hate the Free attribute when applied to anything other than Armor Digimon. Unknown works much better as a "wild card" attribute in my opinion, especially for "weird" Digimon like Keramon, Apocalymon, and Meicoomon. And V-mon, Wormmon, Hawkmon, Armadimon, etc. should just get regular attributes.

Speaking of Armor Digimon, I don't like using them (or Hybrids) as part of regular evolution lines. Over in the Random Commentary on Evolutionary Relationships threads, it's pretty common to use Armor Digimon to fill out lines and while yeah, some of them do make a lot of sense visually- Pillomon->Sheepmon->Pajiramon looks great for instance... blegh, I just don't like it. I think Armors are coolest as somewhat powerful evolutionary dead-ends, which is how they seem to work in 02 and most games they've been featured in.

On that topic: Ophanimon is actually a Cherubim due to its design. It has 4 faces and a humanoid shape with wings covering its body. The only part of its design that are Ophanim related are the wheel adornments, but its body is that of a Cherubim. It doesnt help that Ophanim and Cherubim are often depicted together.
The Ophan(im) from Shin Megami Tensei is depicted with four animal heads like a cherub, and I wouldn't be surprised if Digimon took a few cues from that monster series for its version. It wouldn't be the first time :Þ

Big agree with your complaint about angel Digimon designs being underwhelming, although I take issue with the "Biblically-accurate angels" meme. The only angels described in the Bible as being visually strange or otherworldly creatures are the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Ophanim. Most of the time, they just looked like normal humans, hence the phrase "angels unawares". All that aside though... yes, please give me some fiery winged eyeball monstrosity angel Digimon, that'd be sick. They're on the right track with Ordinemon, just keep that going. Or if you must have pretty flying humanoid angels, Bandai, maybe make them something other than light-skinned blond/e people for once? Besides just being done to death at this point, the optics of making your holy humanoid creatures all look like beautiful white Europeans are Not Great.
 

Yamato-san

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I hate the Free attribute when applied to anything other than Armor Digimon. Unknown works much better as a "wild card" attribute in my opinion, especially for "weird" Digimon like Keramon, Apocalymon, and Meicoomon. And V-mon, Wormmon, Hawkmon, Armadimon, etc. should just get regular attributes.

Speaking of Armor Digimon, I don't like using them (or Hybrids) as part of regular evolution lines. Over in the Random Commentary on Evolutionary Relationships threads, it's pretty common to use Armor Digimon to fill out lines and while yeah, some of them do make a lot of sense visually- Pillomon->Sheepmon->Pajiramon looks great for instance... blegh, I just don't like it. I think Armors are coolest as somewhat powerful evolutionary dead-ends, which is how they seem to work in 02 and most games they've been featured in.
I do agree with you for the most part, but I gotta say, as an exception, I actually like the idea of the Devas evolving from Armor Digimon in the card game (even Andiramon, which can evolve from Bitmon), with the Devas then evolving into one of the four Holy Beasts. I dunno why I like the idea, maybe because it gives the Devas a unique distinction from other Perfects.

Also, I wouldn't mind the 02 Digimon restoring their attributes from the card game (in fact, for whatever reason, they even keep those attributes for their X forms throughout all media). As it stands, if all the Armor forms just have Free, then they have a lot of trouble standing apart from one another (more so when all the evolutions of a particular Digimental tend to have the same elemental theme). On the other hand, I can't say I'm fond of the idea of V-mon being YET ANOTHER Vaccine protagonist...... though maybe it could be an exception, given that it's so emblematic of the 02 era (the Cyber Sleuth games seem to further emphasize the line's neutrality, given that they're mostly non-elemental and have rounded stats on top of being Free)?
 
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Muur

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I don't think devas becoming Holy Beasts makes much sense. They evolve to their masters- do they then get their own devas?
 

Yamato-san

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I don't think devas becoming Holy Beasts makes much sense. They evolve to their masters- do they then get their own devas?
I mean, you could view the Devas as apprentices. Though honestly, I don't know much about the relationship between Holy Beasts and Devas, other than that every 3 of the 12 Chinese Zodiacs are apparently associated with a particular directional god (that said, it is pretty screwy that we've got things like, say, the tiger being associated with Seiryuu instead of Byakko, but I'm no expert on Chinese culture, so what do I know?).
 

The One Who Writes

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My most unpopular opinion is that Digimon should've ended with its apotheosis, Digimon Tamers. Too many franchises fail to end on their grace note and drag on into interminable mediocrity. Digimon Frontier was just terrible. Digimon Savers was a more shounenized version of Tamers. The others were so un-Digimon-like they are hardly worth mentioning, and the recent shows I have in fairness failed to watch, but it seems evident to me they are little more than nostalgic cash-grabs. If there was to be another Digimon after Tamers, it should have been a sequel to Tamers, with the kids aged to perhaps teenagers, and they could have done something like what they tried to do with Tri, except hopefully with much better execution.

Digimon designs being underwhelming, although I take issue with the "Biblically-accurate angels" meme. The only angels described in the Bible as being visually strange or otherworldly creatures are the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Ophanim. Most of the time, they just looked like normal humans, hence the phrase "angels unawares". All that aside though... yes, please give me some fiery winged eyeball monstrosity angel Digimon, that'd be sick. They're on the right track with Ordinemon, just keep that going. Or if you must have pretty flying humanoid angels, Bandai, maybe make them something other than light-skinned blond/e people for once? Besides just being done to death at this point, the optics of making your holy humanoid creatures all look like beautiful white Europeans are Not Great.
You may not be aware of this, but race is a social construct. There is no such thing as a white European race. Since prehistory, there have been ethnic groups throughout Eurasia and North Africa that have what Americans would regard as a white appearance (the terminology for this is "white passing"). The claim that "white" means "European" is one of the common and egregious claims that contribute to the cultural erasure of a huge set of diverse ethnic groups throughout North Africa, the Middle East, India, the Eurasian steppe, Anatolia, the Levant, etc. Ironically, this is becoming a bigger problem because of the American cultural imperialism that is exporting not just Hollywood movies but uniquely American views on race. In this case, given that the angel Digimon are characters from Judaic mythology, it's only natural that they would be given the appearance of Jewish people, which does now and always has sometimes included blonde or red hair, and sometimes blue or green eyes. You can also look at extremely insular ethnic groups that never left the Levant, like the Samaritans, which are closely related to the Jewish people, and see the same thing. Frankly as someone whose family hails from the Levant it is very annoying for Americans online to inform me I'm not "white", whatever they think that is. Apologies if this ended up being a bit of a rant but it's something I encounter a lot.

Although it's probably more likely that the Japanese creators of these Digimon did not consider the question too deeply and simply used common examples of their portrayals as inspiration, not feeling a need to racialize Digimon to properly represent other ethnic groups.
 

Tortoiseshel

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I am well aware that race is unscientific nonsense, but portraying light-skinned, blond-haired, blue-eyed people as exceptionally beautiful/holy/good/whatever is a longstanding racist tradition in art, and one I wish Digimon wouldn't contribute to. Besides it just being visually uninteresting to repeat the same design tropes over and over. And I'm saying this as a pale, blonde, blue-eyed Anglo.
 

Yamato-san

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You may not be aware of this, but race is a social construct. There is no such thing as a white European race. Since prehistory, there have been ethnic groups throughout Eurasia and North Africa that have what Americans would regard as a white appearance (the terminology for this is "white passing"). The claim that "white" means "European" is one of the common and egregious claims that contribute to the cultural erasure of a huge set of diverse ethnic groups throughout North Africa, the Middle East, India, the Eurasian steppe, Anatolia, the Levant, etc. Ironically, this is becoming a bigger problem because of the American cultural imperialism that is exporting not just Hollywood movies but uniquely American views on race. In this case, given that the angel Digimon are characters from Judaic mythology, it's only natural that they would be given the appearance of Jewish people, which does now and always has sometimes included blonde or red hair, and sometimes blue or green eyes. You can also look at extremely insular ethnic groups that never left the Levant, like the Samaritans, which are closely related to the Jewish people, and see the same thing. Frankly as someone whose family hails from the Levant it is very annoying for Americans online to inform me I'm not "white", whatever they think that is. Apologies if this ended up being a bit of a rant but it's something I encounter a lot.

Although it's probably more likely that the Japanese creators of these Digimon did not consider the question too deeply and simply used common examples of their portrayals as inspiration, not feeling a need to racialize Digimon to properly represent other ethnic groups.
Not to mention that most of Japan itself is light-skinned, which is why 99.9% of anime characters also follow suit.
 

Vaioumon

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Having finally watched Kizuna, I can now truly claim the opinion that it is worse than tri., other than the technical aspects such as animation.
 

Nemomon

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Having finally watched Kizuna, I can now truly claim the opinion that it is worse than tri., other than the technical aspects such as animation.
Since I also watched it a few days ago, I'm curious why do you think that?
 

Dusklight

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Having finally watched Kizuna, I can now truly claim the opinion that it is worse than tri., other than the technical aspects such as animation.
Since I also watched it a few days ago, I'm curious why do you think that?
I'm not Vaioumon but since I generally have the same opinion I hope it's okay if I chime in :)

I wanna start by saying that tri. is an imperfect product, particularly in the second half. You can tell that Toei didn't treat it with care and it becomes clear quickly that the writers took the idea of making it nostalgic and fanservicey way too far; they overemphasized the things that were being lauded in the first half of the films (namely the cute slice of life bits and the emphasis on Meiko) while also being unable (mostly through no fault of their own, because the budget didn't allow it) to fix some of the big criticisms. But at least tri. maintains it's own integrity and story without sacrificing the majority of it's cast - the 02 crew aside, but tri. never even started to claim that it would focus on them and incredibly importantly to me tri.'s mission statement from the get go was to maintain what came before and enhance upon it, which it did, even if it was to varying degrees of success.

Kizuna doesn't do that.

For starters if your name isn't Yamato Ishida, Koushiro Izumi, or Taichi Yagami don't even begin to think that you'll play any kind of decent role in this film. Mimi, Jou, and especially Sora (poor Sora) BARELY figure into the film. Mimi and Jou appear briefly before the final fight because Mimi was victimized by the main villain, and then they take part in the final fight, but that's all that they have. TK and Kari are similar in that they have roles in the beginning fight with Parrotmon, are kidnapped, and then figure into the final fight. Sora doesn't appear in any significant way at all, despite the fact that in the original Adventure she was the tritagonist of the show. She doesn't even figure in here except to say she hopes Taichi and Yamato win the final battle which she isn't involved in. Frankly, Sora's character was assassinated entirely in this film which is only fitting because she felt like a bit of a non-factor in tri., too. Not that it makes this okay.

The 02 kids play a bit of a role but it isn't anything overly integral that couldn't be handled in another fashion. They exist as an apology to the fanbase after how they were treated in tri. - the writers are saying hey, these guys are here, they're important too, we're sorry for throwing them under the bus for six whole movies! It's nice to see them but there's no substance.

And then there's the plot.

The plot by itself could be fine if it didn't contradict the lore of the original series to the point that it effectively retcons the Adventure universe's epilogue unless you fill in the gaps yourself. The idea that you and your digimon partner can't be partners if you go beyond a certain age or become an adult is so ludicrous when measured against everything else that's shown in the Adventure universe that it isn't even funny. The impetus for the endgame of 02 was the fact that Oikawa finally got to be with his partner and he finally got to be a digidestined, and well, he was an adult when that happened in the first place. And then the epilogue shows us a world where humans and digimon coexist as Chosen individuals and their partners, no matter what age they are. The Drama CDs - all of which were treated as canon by tri.'s team at least, iirc - even show us that Iori's grandfather gains a digimon partner and a digivice, and he's basically an octogenarian. It was pretty well known that there was a huge disconnect between Kakudou and the rest of Kizuna's team that led Kakudou to leave, and it's pretty clear that it was this.

That said even that issue with the plot is only an issue primarily because of the fact that Kizuna was said to be the last story told in the original Adventure universe. It's been advertised as saying that's it, this is done, there's no more of this, say your goodbye's because after this we'll never meet again. And that's literally how it ends. Agumon disappears, the screen fades to black, and... we'll never see them again. And this happens after the majority of the characters that people came to see don't get any real character arcs or anything interesting, one of them doesn't even feature at all in a way that very much does not jibe with how she's been written in the past, and yeah. It's not satisfying in the slightest. As cool as it is to see MetalGreymon, WereGarurumon, Angemon, and Angewomon fighting Parrotmon in Tokyo that might've been where my enjoyment of the film peaked. And that's at the very beginning. If Kizuna were a series, either of films or an anime series, and it didn't end with them defeating Eosmon but overcoming the fact that they were 'aging out' of being Digidestined it could've all easily been fixed. Other characters could've gotten focus, the lore wouldn't have been broken, etc. But it wasn't. It was a singular movie, and they ended it where they did, making the moral of the film that no matter what you do you're eventually going to age and become someone entirely different than you were before for better (Taichi et. al) or worse (Menoa).

Then there's also the fact that Menoa is basically just Maki, but I'm not going to go into that. I think it speaks for itself paired with the rest of this, ah, scathing critique.
 

RogueX4

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A lot of the “plot issues” or “lore contradictions” from Tri and Kizuna would be resolved if we get a follow up with the 02 cast. I really hope that is the case because 02 needs it’s own “Tri” to close all the lose ends. The story needs it. Plus a D-3 version complete wouldn’t hurt now that Armadimon got a new Mega/Ultimate...

Personally I think Tri and Kizuna where good to great films overall. They weren’t what I would of done, however they where pretty good and their direction made sense for Adventure. For the most part Adventure was a character growth and character driven show. A lot of it’s lore and world building was it’s own thing and made up as it went. With it slowly integrating elements of the actual main lore. I still do enjoy Adventure and 02’s take on the Digital World though.

However I think that’s why I am really loving the Reboot since it’s world and lore seem to be established, and it seems to be following the actual lore. Like type advantages seem to be subtly a thing. Seeing Togemon’s Needle Spray bounce of Kuwagamon or Leomon stomping Megadramon was pretty cool.
 

Nemomon

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I'm not Vaioumon but since I generally have the same opinion I hope it's okay if I chime in :)
Sure, go ahead! ;)

Before I will start, I will mention that I prefer Kizuna more than Tri. But I will admit that I might be biased, because I dislike Meiko (I think the writers put to much attention on her, and with her constant whining/crying he became annoying pretty fast), and also because I didn't really feel that "growing up" stuff, and problems it could cause. I mean, from what I remember nothing really changed the day when I became adult, and I'm pretty sure for majority of Tri watchers too. Therefore the whole plot Tri tried to tell me was pretty artifical to me. Not to mention that splitting the whole series into 6 movies with pretty long breaks didn't really help me understanding what's going on.

But at least tri. maintains it's own integrity and story without sacrificing the majority of it's cast - the 02 crew aside, but tri. never even started to claim that it would focus on them and incredibly importantly to me tri.'s mission statement from the get go was to maintain what came before and enhance upon it, which it did, even if it was to varying degrees of success.
Are you sure that Tri maintains its own integrity and story? I won't provide you any examples right now as I don't remember too well the details of the story, but I remember that when it aired it was pretty messed (You didn't know who's who, why they're doing what they were doing, for who their work and why exactly they work for them) with many plot holes or at least never explained stuff. You could know the very main plot - Yggdrasil fights Homeostasis and vice versa, because some lady with crooked legs lost her Digimon and becuase of that she went insane (same as certain Menoa) and decided to restart the world, but that's all. Many things happen on the screen and you don't know why they happen and how they're related to the main plot, and if at all they're related to the plot. Kizuna in this regard is different, because the whole plot is pretty linear, and most stuff that happen on the screen is a reaction to what happened earlier.

For starters if your name isn't Yamato Ishida, Koushiro Izumi, or Taichi Yagami don't even begin to think that you'll play any kind of decent role in this film. Mimi, Jou, and especially Sora (poor Sora) BARELY figure into the film. Mimi and Jou appear briefly before the final fight because Mimi was victimized by the main villain, and then they take part in the final fight, but that's all that they have. TK and Kari are similar in that they have roles in the beginning fight with Parrotmon, are kidnapped, and then figure into the final fight. Sora doesn't appear in any significant way at all, despite the fact that in the original Adventure she was the tritagonist of the show. She doesn't even figure in here except to say she hopes Taichi and Yamato win the final battle which she isn't involved in. Frankly, Sora's character was assassinated entirely in this film which is only fitting because she felt like a bit of a non-factor in tri., too. Not that it makes this okay.

The 02 kids play a bit of a role but it isn't anything overly integral that couldn't be handled in another fashion. They exist as an apology to the fanbase after how they were treated in tri. - the writers are saying hey, these guys are here, they're important too, we're sorry for throwing them under the bus for six whole movies! It's nice to see them but there's no substance.
Haha, I agree with you that what they did to Sora and Joe was really pretty sad. To Mimi too, but she at least had her few scenes (unlike for example Joe that the entire movie he either takes medical notes, or "medically" sleeps in a hospital.

I agree that Tri in this regard is much better than Kizuna. Whatever we would want to say about Tri, it's hard to avoid the facts that it was characters' centered and almost every of them got some minutes to shine (with Takeru becoming some big fat dick especially towards Joe, but I must admit watching that was pretty amusing too).

But at the very least they acknowledged the existence of Zero Two characters ;). After all they always could force Mimi and Joe to do running shoes job around America and once again ignore Daisuke and co. I kinda think it could be even worse thing if they would do that. At least fans of Zero Two cast were able to please their eyes too ;) (though I'm upset that they ignored Ryou's existence especially that they included Meiko and Wallace).

And then there's the plot.

The plot by itself could be fine if it didn't contradict the lore of the original series to the point that it effectively retcons the Adventure universe's epilogue unless you fill in the gaps yourself. The idea that you and your digimon partner can't be partners if you go beyond a certain age or become an adult is so ludicrous when measured against everything else that's shown in the Adventure universe that it isn't even funny. The impetus for the endgame of 02 was the fact that Oikawa finally got to be with his partner and he finally got to be a digidestined, and well, he was an adult when that happened in the first place. And then the epilogue shows us a world where humans and digimon coexist as Chosen individuals and their partners, no matter what age they are. The Drama CDs - all of which were treated as canon by tri.'s team at least, iirc - even show us that Iori's grandfather gains a digimon partner and a digivice, and he's basically an octogenarian. It was pretty well known that there was a huge disconnect between Kakudou and the rest of Kizuna's team that led Kakudou to leave, and it's pretty clear that it was this.
I agree and disagree with you. You could say that they retconned the epilogue but I don't think that's the case. And Kizuna in itself proves that. You see Jou is the oldest kid among them, so naturally that "losing your Digimon" stuff should start from him and not from Taichi and Yamato that are younger than Joe. After all Jou became an adult faster than TaiYam and yet he still was able to keep his Gomamon. On the other hand, the kids already once lost their Digis, their Digis once lost their entire existence and became reset, and even then that was not enough to break their bond. Also, at the end of original Adventure the kids leave behind all of their Digis and from Zero Two we know that even after that they managed to find a way to contact them and even enter the DigiWorld.

All in all, even though Tai and Yamato lost their Digi it doesn't mean they lost them forever. Especially that the others kids didn't lose anything at all, and they're the same age as TaiYam.

That said even that issue with the plot is only an issue primarily because of the fact that Kizuna was said to be the last story told in the original Adventure universe. It's been advertised as saying that's it, this is done, there's no more of this, say your goodbye's because after this we'll never meet again. And that's literally how it ends. Agumon disappears, the screen fades to black, and... we'll never see them again. And this happens after the majority of the characters that people came to see don't get any real character arcs or anything interesting, one of them doesn't even feature at all in a way that very much does not jibe with how she's been written in the past, and yeah. It's not satisfying in the slightest. As cool as it is to see MetalGreymon, WereGarurumon, Angemon, and Angewomon fighting Parrotmon in Tokyo that might've been where my enjoyment of the film peaked. And that's at the very beginning. If Kizuna were a series, either of films or an anime series, and it didn't end with them defeating Eosmon but overcoming the fact that they were 'aging out' of being Digidestined it could've all easily been fixed. Other characters could've gotten focus, the lore wouldn't have been broken, etc. But it wasn't. It was a singular movie, and they ended it where they did, making the moral of the film that no matter what you do you're eventually going to age and become someone entirely different than you were before for better (Taichi et. al) or worse (Menoa).
I take the ending in a kinda different way. It's not unpopular in other animes that something disappears and then we see a black screen. Heck, in exactly the same manner Tamers ended. But there we knew that Takatomon will meet again Guilmon. Keeping Zero Two's epilogue in mind, I thought that this disappearance won't be forever. In fact I was more happy - if we could say such a thing to a virtual character - that Taichi finally accepted the fact that he won't be with Agumon forever, overcame his fears and understood that he's no longer a kid and now must live also for himself and not for others. Kinda what Jou tried to say the cast through the entire Tri series ;).

Then there's also the fact that Menoa is basically just Maki, but I'm not going to go into that. I think it speaks for itself paired with the rest of this, ah, scathing critique.
If you don't mind, I agree with you about your assessment. But look at that, what Maki ever achieved? She managed to reset the Digital World, and that's all. What was her punishment? She became a sex doll to the Deep Ones. I hardly can imagine any worse and awful punishment... On the other hand Menoa managed to kidnap over 30k people all around the world, managed to create her own Neverland universe not to mention her own artifical Digimon. And at the end of the series she was just cuffed as a punishment. While Maki was pretty cunning, Menoa was like an open book. It's even more sad if you think that there is no way for her (considering her IQ) not to realize that her Neverland is just a fiction and there is no way for it to stay around forever. Because even Menoa could became bored of it pretty soon.

Concluding, I'm not saying that Kizuna is flawless, in fact it has its own fair share of flaws, but unlike in Tri, here you at least knew what's going on and why.
 

Dusklight

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I'm not Vaioumon but since I generally have the same opinion I hope it's okay if I chime in :)
Sure, go ahead! ;)

Before I will start, I will mention that I prefer Kizuna more than Tri. But I will admit that I might be biased, because I dislike Meiko (I think the writers put to much attention on her, and with her constant whining/crying he became annoying pretty fast), and also because I didn't really feel that "growing up" stuff, and problems it could cause. I mean, from what I remember nothing really changed the day when I became adult, and I'm pretty sure for majority of Tri watchers too. Therefore the whole plot Tri tried to tell me was pretty artifical to me. Not to mention that splitting the whole series into 6 movies with pretty long breaks didn't really help me understanding what's going on.
Growing up is something that happens gradually and as far as Tri goes it's mainly Taichi's plot. Everyone else is pretty centered on who they are and the development that they undergo, but it's Taichi and to a lesser extent Yamato that 'grow up' so to speak. Jou grows further into his friends and his bonds and makes it a point to be happier with them, and to be more active. Mimi grows to learn more about herself. Etc, etc, etc. The point of tri. was that growing up is different for everyone.

But at least tri. maintains it's own integrity and story without sacrificing the majority of it's cast - the 02 crew aside, but tri. never even started to claim that it would focus on them and incredibly importantly to me tri.'s mission statement from the get go was to maintain what came before and enhance upon it, which it did, even if it was to varying degrees of success.
Nemomon[/quote said:
Are you sure that Tri maintains its own integrity and story? I won't provide you any examples right now as I don't remember too well the details of the story, but I remember that when it aired it was pretty messed (You didn't know who's who, why they're doing what they were doing, for who their work and why exactly they work for them) with many plot holes or at least never explained stuff. You could know the very main plot - Yggdrasil fights Homeostasis and vice versa, because some lady with crooked legs lost her Digimon and becuase of that she went insane (same as certain Menoa) and decided to restart the world, but that's all. Many things happen on the screen and you don't know why they happen and how they're related to the main plot, and if at all they're related to the plot. Kizuna in this regard is different, because the whole plot is pretty linear, and most stuff that happen on the screen is a reaction to what happened earlier.
Yes. I'm sure that tri. successfully maintains it's own integrity and it's story; now, again, I said that it did so to varying degrees of success and how people individually felt about how it did so is of course going to differ but I don't agree that it randomly flashed between scenes or anything like that. Even if you aren't a fan of how it was executed or how the story was told that's fine, but each scene was there for a reason. We got Meiko's backstory with Meicoomon for a reason. We got the backstory with the original Digidestined for a reason. We got the scenes with Maki for a reason, and yes, it was to show that she was going through a loss and as a result of childhood trauma that ended up breaking her. Maki is a tragic character, and that's why when they revisit the same exact plot with Menoa it doesn't have the same gravitas as it does in tri. Also... do you really think that Menoa accomplished a loftier goal than Maki did? Maki ended up causing an entire dimension to be destroyed and restarted. That's something that most villains don't remotely accomplish.

For starters if your name isn't Yamato Ishida, Koushiro Izumi, or Taichi Yagami don't even begin to think that you'll play any kind of decent role in this film. Mimi, Jou, and especially Sora (poor Sora) BARELY figure into the film. Mimi and Jou appear briefly before the final fight because Mimi was victimized by the main villain, and then they take part in the final fight, but that's all that they have. TK and Kari are similar in that they have roles in the beginning fight with Parrotmon, are kidnapped, and then figure into the final fight. Sora doesn't appear in any significant way at all, despite the fact that in the original Adventure she was the tritagonist of the show. She doesn't even figure in here except to say she hopes Taichi and Yamato win the final battle which she isn't involved in. Frankly, Sora's character was assassinated entirely in this film which is only fitting because she felt like a bit of a non-factor in tri., too. Not that it makes this okay.

The 02 kids play a bit of a role but it isn't anything overly integral that couldn't be handled in another fashion. They exist as an apology to the fanbase after how they were treated in tri. - the writers are saying hey, these guys are here, they're important too, we're sorry for throwing them under the bus for six whole movies! It's nice to see them but there's no substance.
But at the very least they acknowledged the existence of Zero Two characters ;). After all they always could force Mimi and Joe to do running shoes job around America and once again ignore Daisuke and co. I kinda think it could be even worse thing if they would do that. At least fans of Zero Two cast were able to please their eyes too ;) (though I'm upset that they ignored Ryou's existence especially that they included Meiko and Wallace).
Yeah, I think it was good that the 02 kids were there and they were used to decent effect. It's one of the only things that I'm willing to give Kizuna without a doubt, even if the 02 kids weren't really used for any huge moments or anything like that at least they featured. Again, it's all flash and no substance, and it's them basically saying sorry that we didn't use them in tri. I think it would've been cool to see Ryou in a cameo like we did with Meiko and Wallace, but also Kizuna came out in a world where Ryou is more a Tamers character than an Adventure one.

And then there's the plot.

The plot by itself could be fine if it didn't contradict the lore of the original series to the point that it effectively retcons the Adventure universe's epilogue unless you fill in the gaps yourself. The idea that you and your digimon partner can't be partners if you go beyond a certain age or become an adult is so ludicrous when measured against everything else that's shown in the Adventure universe that it isn't even funny. The impetus for the endgame of 02 was the fact that Oikawa finally got to be with his partner and he finally got to be a digidestined, and well, he was an adult when that happened in the first place. And then the epilogue shows us a world where humans and digimon coexist as Chosen individuals and their partners, no matter what age they are. The Drama CDs - all of which were treated as canon by tri.'s team at least, iirc - even show us that Iori's grandfather gains a digimon partner and a digivice, and he's basically an octogenarian. It was pretty well known that there was a huge disconnect between Kakudou and the rest of Kizuna's team that led Kakudou to leave, and it's pretty clear that it was this.
I agree and disagree with you. You could say that they retconned the epilogue but I don't think that's the case. And Kizuna in itself proves that. You see Jou is the oldest kid among them, so naturally that "losing your Digimon" stuff should start from him and not from Taichi and Yamato that are younger than Joe. After all Jou became an adult faster than TaiYam and yet he still was able to keep his Gomamon. On the other hand, the kids already once lost their Digis, their Digis once lost their entire existence and became reset, and even then that was not enough to break their bond. Also, at the end of original Adventure the kids leave behind all of their Digis and from Zero Two we know that even after that they managed to find a way to contact them and even enter the DigiWorld.

All in all, even though Tai and Yamato lost their Digi it doesn't mean they lost them forever. Especially that the others kids didn't lose anything at all, and they're the same age as TaiYam.
The problem is that it's never defined what losing your childhood is and that we see Agumon gone, never to be seen again as far as anyone knows within the narrative. It's bad writing. They expect you to fill in the gaps if you're an older fan and if you're someone that hasn't seen Adventure 02 (there were a lot of fans that skipped it or who started with tri.) think that they never saw the digimon again. It's a really bittersweet ending that doesn't fit the narrative of what the story is trying and failing to argue against and it also doesn't fit with anything that's previously established - and again, it was probably specifically this that got Kakudou to quit. The guy who created Digimon Adventure likely quit because of it. Kizuna exists in a vacuum insofar as everything else does, and in that vacuum Agumon disappears and is never seen again.

That said even that issue with the plot is only an issue primarily because of the fact that Kizuna was said to be the last story told in the original Adventure universe. It's been advertised as saying that's it, this is done, there's no more of this, say your goodbye's because after this we'll never meet again. And that's literally how it ends. Agumon disappears, the screen fades to black, and... we'll never see them again. And this happens after the majority of the characters that people came to see don't get any real character arcs or anything interesting, one of them doesn't even feature at all in a way that very much does not jibe with how she's been written in the past, and yeah. It's not satisfying in the slightest. As cool as it is to see MetalGreymon, WereGarurumon, Angemon, and Angewomon fighting Parrotmon in Tokyo that might've been where my enjoyment of the film peaked. And that's at the very beginning. If Kizuna were a series, either of films or an anime series, and it didn't end with them defeating Eosmon but overcoming the fact that they were 'aging out' of being Digidestined it could've all easily been fixed. Other characters could've gotten focus, the lore wouldn't have been broken, etc. But it wasn't. It was a singular movie, and they ended it where they did, making the moral of the film that no matter what you do you're eventually going to age and become someone entirely different than you were before for better (Taichi et. al) or worse (Menoa).
I take the ending in a kinda different way. It's not unpopular in other animes that something disappears and then we see a black screen. Heck, in exactly the same manner Tamers ended. But there we knew that Takatomon will meet again Guilmon. Keeping Zero Two's epilogue in mind, I thought that this disappearance won't be forever. In fact I was more happy - if we could say such a thing to a virtual character - that Taichi finally accepted the fact that he won't be with Agumon forever, overcame his fears and understood that he's no longer a kid and now must live also for himself and not for others. Kinda what Jou tried to say the cast through the entire Tri series ;).
But the point of Jou's arc in tri was the fact that while he tried to move on and thought he wouldn't be with Gomamon forever, he was wrong. No matter what happened the point of tri with regards to the digimon partners is that they would always be there for their humans; their past lives and memories overcame the entire Digital World being rebooted back to a point before they were even created let alone before they met their partners. When every other digimon was reset to factory settings, the bond between them overcame anything. And that was also the story that was told in Adventure and in Adventure Zero Two. Kizuna directly contradicts that. It doesn't build on it, it doesn't add a twist to it. It just straight up acts as though none of it ever happened or existed in order to sell it's narrative.

Then there's also the fact that Menoa is basically just Maki, but I'm not going to go into that. I think it speaks for itself paired with the rest of this, ah, scathing critique.
If you don't mind, I agree with you about your assessment. But look at that, what Maki ever achieved? She managed to reset the Digital World, and that's all. What was her punishment? She became a sex doll to the Deep Ones. I hardly can imagine any worse and awful punishment... On the other hand Menoa managed to kidnap over 30k people all around the world, managed to create her own Neverland universe not to mention her own artifical Digimon. And at the end of the series she was just cuffed as a punishment. While Maki was pretty cunning, Menoa was like an open book. It's even more sad if you think that there is no way for her (considering her IQ) not to realize that her Neverland is just a fiction and there is no way for it to stay around forever. Because even Menoa could became bored of it pretty soon.

Concluding, I'm not saying that Kizuna is flawless, in fact it has its own fair share of flaws, but unlike in Tri, here you at least knew what's going on and why.
Again, see above with regards to Menoa and Maki. Maki is a tragic figure who wasn't able to properly process her childhood trauma for numerous reasons - she's what could've happened to the Digidestined if things had been different. She went insane and she wanted that connection, that unbreakable connection, that she had with her partner digimon back and she wanted it back so badly that she did anything to achieve it. She accomplishes her goal. She destroys an entire dimension and resets it to get there. That's hardcore. Of course she still doesn't measure up to the other series villains and it isn't entirely capitalized on, I've admitted that tri. isn't a perfect narrative, but it doesn't both copy what came before and trample all over it like Last Evolution Kizuna does. Also, this is conjecture, but I think the Maki plot would have continued on if tri. had gone on for longer. They would've dealt with the Dark Ocean eventually.

Menoa just feels like a sadder version of Maki without as strong of a backstory. It's like they took Wallace, Ken, Mak, and Meiko and smashed them together into a single character but without any of the nuance that at least half of those characters had.
 

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I have what's probably an unpopular opinion, which a comment either on the forum or the Discord made me think of recently. Someone said they liked the most recent insert song in Adventure 2020 more than the previous ones, and compared it to "Brave Heart."

While I like "Brave Heart" as a song, it's never really seemed all that fitting to me as a battle theme. To me, at least, it doesn't sound like a song to kick ass to. I think that later insert songs in the series, starting with "Break Up," did a better job of feeling like exciting fight music.
 

miru

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Ranamon is the absolute cutest adult level period. I also really think she needs to be used as a hero at some point, at least in a video game.

More human-free works ala X-Evolution should be tried.
The Western-made Digimon are all valid and we need more of them.
I have no problem with Attributes outside of Va/Da/Vi.
Fields should be used more often nowadays, even if I find the Accel-era field system to be too limiting at times.
 
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AquaKai

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Having deepened my knowledge about the origin of the franchise recently, I have to say I miss the unpredictability and variation of evolution from the first days. Granted, it's not always forgotten, but it seems to me the trend nowadays is building "official", often linear, evolution lines. And not only this diminishes what makes Digimon unique IMO, but it's not something they're insisting on for every character. So the result is a mixed bag with some (boring) linear evo lines and some Digimon without a "proper evolution".

Also I don't like the Ultimate (Mega) level. It feels redundant with the Perfect (Ultimate) one, even in name. In fact, many if not most of the ultimates tend to become antropomorphic\warrior characters. I still love some of them, like Boltmon, but i feel they should be Perfect. (Why does Leomon need a further stage before becoming SaberLeomon? Why my Ogremon can't become Boltmon right away?)

Some months ago I would have said I don't like the more recent design, but luckily the Pendulum Z ones have proven me wrong!
 

Unknown Neo

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Ranamon is the absolute cutest adult level period. I also really think she needs to be used as a hero at some point, at least in a video game.
This isn't unpopular with me. And I think she might be cutest female looking Digimon period.
 

miru

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This isn't unpopular with me. And I think she might be cutest female looking Digimon period.
Agreed. I want a figuarts or such of her.
I do feel like it’s a shame Digimon has nothing on the horizon television-wise that isn’t tied to the original series.
 

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That would be nice but let's see what this series gets and maybe they can try something different after.
 

Dusklight

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This isn't unpopular with me. And I think she might be cutest female looking Digimon period.
Agreed. I want a figuarts or such of her.
I do feel like it’s a shame Digimon has nothing on the horizon television-wise that isn’t tied to the original series.
Well, we dunno what's coming after Adventure:. There are still more than 30 episodes left in that engine's tank.
 
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