Unpopular opinions and rants about the Digimon franchize.

[Yamato-san]

Speaking of which, if the art designs came after the dot sprites, I kinda wonder how the thought process behind Palmon must've gone. Like, at what point did they decide "it isn't shooting lightning like the other three, it's extending its vines"?

Though on that same train of thought, I wonder what compelled them to make a corruption of an old man-based Tamagotchi be their fourth poop-thrower (also, is there some thing about Japan and drunken, middle-aged men throwing poop? Gintama used a similar gag at one point).

 

[The Chaos Entity]

I’ve never thought about it before…but you’ve got a very good point, there. Was Palmon always meant to be extending its vines, but it needed to match the normal attack animation? Or was it a later decision?

 

[JR9386]

You seem to have a weird habit of insisting that Digimon are based on things they blatantly aren’t.

You're seriously engaging in tu quoques over a difference of opinion in my take on Raguelmon/Rasielmon?

I cited that she bears absolutely no resemblance to the angel they're both named after, other than the name serving as an allusion to their role. I had a difference of opinion in so far as their designs being more in keeping with other figures that are in keeping with those roles (Figures of Justice/Vengeance).

Again, modern research shows that synapsids, like Dimetrodon and Edaphosauridae, were closer genetically to a cat than to a dinosaur.

They're proto-mammalian, but not mammals proper. What makes them synapsids is that they evolved to have a temporal fenestra, differentiated teeth, and a secondary palate.

They were previously classed as Pelycosaurs, and are under the clade Reptiliomorpha.

But, all of this is getting off topic. I merely objected to Betamon being deemed a fish, and as I stated in my response here:

Supposedly, not that it's official, it's based off of Dimetrodon.

I proposed one alternative possibility, I didn't state that it was definitive. With that said, I'm checking myself out of this exchange with you.

 

[Vande]

This bickering and off-topic is to cease.

 

[Tortoiseshel]

Lol sorry about that guys, I didn't think my little offhand comment was gonna start a whole conversation like that! I was just thinking Seadramon appears to have three pairs of fins along its body that seem to match up with the pectoral, pelvic, and anal fins that lobe-finned fish have. I'm sure the behind-the-scenes thought process was just "scaly sea serpent to go along with Airdramon".

 

[e105zeta]

Speaking of which, if the art designs came after the dot sprites, I kinda wonder how the thought process behind Palmon must've gone. Like, at what point did they decide "it isn't shooting lightning like the other three, it's extending its vines"?

Though on that same train of thought, I wonder what compelled them to make a corruption of an old man-based Tamagotchi be their fourth poop-thrower (also, is there some thing about Japan and drunken, middle-aged men throwing poop? Gintama used a similar gag at one point).

Palmon and Piyomon are super weird actually. Agumon and Greymon/Tyranomon were obviously meant to go together. Same for Gabumon and Garurumon. Same for Patamon and Unimon/Centaurmon.

Then Digital Monster 4 comes out and Piyomon and Palmon have nothing to do with any of the adults in that pet.

 

[Yamato-san]

Speaking of which, if the art designs came after the dot sprites, I kinda wonder how the thought process behind Palmon must've gone. Like, at what point did they decide "it isn't shooting lightning like the other three, it's extending its vines"?

Though on that same train of thought, I wonder what compelled them to make a corruption of an old man-based Tamagotchi be their fourth poop-thrower (also, is there some thing about Japan and drunken, middle-aged men throwing poop? Gintama used a similar gag at one point).

Palmon and Piyomon are super weird actually. Agumon and Greymon/Tyranomon were obviously meant to go together. Same for Gabumon and Garurumon. Same for Patamon and Unimon/Centaurmon.

Then Digital Monster 4 comes out and Piyomon and Palmon have nothing to do with any of the adults in that pet.

Ver.4 does have a lot of odd ones, but I can't say all of it is unprecedented. Cockatrimon, especially, is brought up in Piyomon's profile as a potential evolution (ironically, even Piyomon's original Digital Monster profile brings up its potential evolution to Birdramon, even though that wasn't available to it due to being introduced earlier in Ver.2). Coelamon's arms seem rather reminiscent of Palmon's, while the tuft on top of Mojyamon's head seems like a callback to Palmon's flower. And I could probably see Kuwagamon relating to both Piyomon due to the two of them being winged, and to Palmon because of the close relationship plants and insects seem to share in Digimon, often being put in the same "nature" category (also, I can't help picturing this image of a bug pollinating Palmon's head only to gain its consciousness and power.... incidentally, the Palmon>Kuwagamon evolution did get used again at least as recently as Cyber Sleuth).

Though speaking of Child Digimon feeling like they don't belong in their respective Ver., Kunemon was played up to be THE bug-type Child before Tentomon came along...... and yet it got introduced in the V-pet after Kabuterimon and before Kuwagamon and Flymon, leaving no actual insects for the larva to evolve into. Of its initial evolutions, the only ones that maybe make sense see its segmented body suddenly fattening up to become either Sukamon (which is also yellow) or Shellmon. And MAYBE Bakemon fitting in with a larva eating a tattered cloth, or just a general dark forest theme.

 

[e105zeta]

Ver.4 does have a lot of odd ones, but I can't say all of it is unprecedented. Cockatrimon, especially, is brought up in Piyomon's profile as a potential evolution (ironically, even Piyomon's original Digital Monster profile brings up its potential evolution to Birdramon, even though that wasn't available to it due to being introduced earlier in Ver.2). Coelamon's arms seem rather reminiscent of Palmon's, while the tuft on top of Mojyamon's head seems like a callback to Palmon's flower. And I could probably see Kuwagamon relating to both Piyomon due to the two of them being winged, and to Palmon because of the close relationship plants and insects seem to share in Digimon, often being put in the same "nature" category (also, I can't help picturing this image of a bug pollinating Palmon's head only to gain its consciousness and power.... incidentally, the Palmon>Kuwagamon evolution did get used again at least as recently as Cyber Sleuth).

I suppose. I still think ver 4 was mostly made up of "leftovers" before they moved onto the more thematic designs of the Pendulum series (and that ver 5 was a canceled Godzilla licensed product they re-did the art for at the last second).

In some ways, Piyomon and Palmon's inclusion Ver 4 seemed like a half-hearted attempt to see if the Digimon franchise had potential gender crossover appeal (as Tamagotchi did for a brief moment) - but they only did Child forms and were too wary of making all of the Ver 4 Digimon girl-appeal characters.

That might even be why Nanimon and DigiTamamon are the hidden characters in Ver 4.

 

[Bancho]

Kunemon was played up to be THE bug-type Child before Tentomon came along

what makes you say that Kunemon was "played up" so much?

 

[Sparrow Hawk]

Here I thought Seadramon is eel dragon serpent.

It's great this Digimon kept releasing every single Digimon based on different animals instead of using the same species to design
but I wish they can just bring back the old pattern of this "unspecific animal" or hybrid animal parts. I truly love this part of Digimon's unique charm.

 

[Jaybird C]

Why is [Konaka's statements suggesting that Ruki's missing father shouldn't matter to her character] a black mark? He pretty much stated that single parents were pretty common in that area and I doubt all kids there are traumatized by that aspect so one could argue Ruki was meant to be a subversion of the "child seriously damaged by their parent's divorce" stereotype. She has parental issues but it has to do with her mother and not her absent father.

Because Ruki is a ten-year-old girl and it is a simple fact of life that children are radically shaped by the environment they grow up in. It's not a "stereotype" for children to be negatively affected by the fighting, selfishness, or any of the attendant plights divorced or divorcing families suffer.

Ruki really has only two options when it comes to her dad--either her dad's absence should matter directly because he's her dad and he simply isn't there (see Ruki begging Renamon not to leave her), or her dad's absence should matter directly indirectly because that means the lion's share of parental influence in Ruki's life is surrendered to her mother (and Ruki's mommy issues are a big part of her character early on).

So Konaka's idea that her dad doesn't matter to her at all is neither true to life nor true to art.

 

[e105zeta]

Why is [Konaka's statements suggesting that Ruki's missing father shouldn't matter to her character] a black mark? He pretty much stated that single parents were pretty common in that area and I doubt all kids there are traumatized by that aspect so one could argue Ruki was meant to be a subversion of the "child seriously damaged by their parent's divorce" stereotype. She has parental issues but it has to do with her mother and not her absent father.

Because Ruki is a ten-year-old girl and it is a simple fact of life that children are radically shaped by the environment they grow up in. It's not a "stereotype" for children to be negatively affected by the fighting, selfishness, or any of the attendant plights divorced or divorcing families suffer.

Ruki really has only two options when it comes to her dad--either her dad's absence should matter directly because he's her dad and he simply isn't there (see Ruki begging Renamon not to leave her), or her dad's absence should matter directly indirectly because that means the lion's share of parental influence in Ruki's life is surrendered to her mother (and Ruki's mommy issues are a big part of her character early on).

So Konaka's idea that her dad doesn't matter to her at all is neither true to life nor true to art.

He said the same thing about Jian being biracial in extremely xenophobic mono racial Japan: that it didn’t matter to his character development.

Which not only seems like the classic “I don’t see color” but is manifestly untrue: out of the three protagonists Takato is the only one with friends outside of his family. It’s not hard to come to the conclusion that the reason for that is Ruki being gender nonconforming and Jian being biracial.

 

[xyzt]

Why is [Konaka's statements suggesting that Ruki's missing father shouldn't matter to her character] a black mark? He pretty much stated that single parents were pretty common in that area and I doubt all kids there are traumatized by that aspect so one could argue Ruki was meant to be a subversion of the "child seriously damaged by their parent's divorce" stereotype. She has parental issues but it has to do with her mother and not her absent father.

Because Ruki is a ten-year-old girl and it is a simple fact of life that children are radically shaped by the environment they grow up in. It's not a "stereotype" for children to be negatively affected by the fighting, selfishness, or any of the attendant plights divorced or divorcing families suffer.

Ruki really has only two options when it comes to her dad--either her dad's absence should matter directly because he's her dad and he simply isn't there (see Ruki begging Renamon not to leave her), or her dad's absence should matter directly indirectly because that means the lion's share of parental influence in Ruki's life is surrendered to her mother (and Ruki's mommy issues are a big part of her character early on).

So Konaka's idea that her dad doesn't matter to her at all is neither true to life nor true to art.

And Ruki's mother being extremely feminine type who is trying to push the same on Ruki is more than enough reason for Ruki being more tomboyish. She has trouble with her mother pushing her daughter into extremely feminine roles and not understanding her. Ruki's tomboyish nature being somewhat of a reaction to that is on its own enough reasoning. The absence of a father figure is not required to explain that aspect of her. It being more of a secondary thing and not something she broods over much is not that unrealistic. Her family is loving and her grandmother is shown to be understanding to a fault. Her mother's only problem is her not understanding her daughter's choice of living but apart from that she is shown to be loving and Ruki is pretty much shown to be straight up spoiled. Also as per some studies, majority of children affected by their parent's divorce recover from it completely within 2 years, so Ruki not being super affected can still be mostly in line with reality.

Is Divorce Bad for Children?

The breakup may be painful, but most kids adjust well over time

www.scientificamerican.com

Divorce affects most children in the short run, but research suggests that kids recover rapidly after the initial blow. In a 2002 study psychologist E. Mavis Hetherington of the University of Virginia and her then graduate student Anne Mitchell Elmore found that many children experience short-term negative effects from divorce, especially anxiety, anger, shock and disbelief. These reactions typically diminish or disappear by the end of the second year. Only a minority of kids suffer longer.

He said the same thing about Jian being biracial in extremely xenophobic mono racial Japan: that it didn’t matter to his character development.

Which is true in the series atleast. Jenrya's character development and character arc was influenced by him having many siblings and the pressures of being a middle child. He pretty much states that the fights he got into as a child was brought by him being frustrated of being a middle child and not getting more attention causing him to show off his martial arts skills which led to another kid getting hurt. His mixed race status was more aesthetic than anything else given that the pressures he faces and his quick maturity could be applicable to any middle child in a many child family having both the pressures of a younger sibling as well as the responsibility of an older sibling.

Digimon tamers is still ultimately a kid's show and the writers can pick and choose which problematic parts of their society do they want to display in their show.

Which not only seems like the classic “I don’t see color” but is manifestly untrue: out of the three protagonists Takato is the only one with friends outside of his family. It’s not hard to come to the conclusion that the reason for that is Ruki being gender nonconforming and Jian being biracial.

Iirc, Ruki did state in episode 44 that she never brought any friends home implying she does have friends but none very close which makes sense since she is in an all girls school and she probably never found anyone who shared her interests. She does show hints of being introverted in this regard as well which probably plays a bigger role here.
The same could be said of Jian that he has friends outside of this but none who share his interest in digimon and are thus not shown. Takato is also shown to have friends beside Juri, Hirokazu and Kenta like those nameless kids in his class that play with Guilmon in episode 16 but they are not relevant to the story. I don't believe it has been stated that Jian does not have any friends beside Takato's group.

 

[Bancho]

The lore shouldn't have stopped at sequestering the Olympus 12 to their own server.

Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian, and Asian pantheons should all have their own servers (and Chinese and Japanese should really have their own servers and myths separate from each other - but Susanoomon stands alone and the Four Holy Beasts are shared by both cultures).

I personally am okay with there being 2 servers but I definitely want more pantheons in Iliad other than just the Olympos XII and based on lores like the ones you describe. I want to see god digimon like Kazuchimon, Mitamamon, and Anubismon as parts of their own pantheon groups

 

[e105zeta]

I personally am okay with there being 2 servers but I definitely want more pantheons in Iliad other than just the Olympos XII and based on lores like the ones you describe. I want to see god digimon like Kazuchimon, Mitamamon, and Anubismon as parts of their own pantheon groups

It's just muddled when the Royal Knights, Holy Beasts, Shakamon, AND Great Angels are all ruling the Digital World Yggdrasil with very little lore that rectifies their seemingly non-compatible co-existence.

 

[Bancho]

how are they incompatible?

 

[JR9386]

how are they incompatible?

Aside from their real world counterparts being incompatible with their interpretation in the Digital World (ie. Judaeo-Christian angels vs. Everything else), in universe, it's the various roles and functions of each which don't make for a cohesive whole.

That's my own take on it.

This articulates quite nicely what I ,personally, see as a deviation from the original intent of the Digital Monsters franchise. With the addition of newer Digimon and their respective roles in the Digital World, there comes a point where either they come to be limited to a particular incarnation of the franchise within the Digital Multiverse, or a soft reboot of sorts ala Pokemon Journeys where they manage to situate each Digimon group within a broader corpus.

Is this how it's supposed to work?:

Say what one will about Pokémon, but they've handled it a bit better in that regard.

The prevalence of Megas for everything also makes it less of a coveted level. Not that all digimon achieve it, but that, it's a common enough level where everything and everyone becomes a Mega. As much as I appreciate A2020 giving them all Megas within the main continuity of the series, it's also extremely bulky to have eight characters wielding Megas at any given time. Unless it were some cataclysmic battle ala the 10 Legendary Warriors (Which i wish we would have gotten to see...), I'm not sure how well it works in practice.

Unpopular opinion:

As much as I like Garudamon, I think Biyomon evolving into Parrotmon would have been the better choice. Just a better Mega than Crossmon.

 

[Bancho]

I feel like I read all that but still don't understand why these groups can't coexist at once.
I'd imagine the angels are either Yggdrasil's military or simply beings obsessed with Yggdrasil's moral order with the great angels being the leaders, the Royal Knights are Yggdrasil's secret knights that it sends out on its most important missions, and the Holy Beasts are simply forces of nature that have nothing to do with Yggdrasil but are so powerful that they're seen as their own gods. I don't see why this can't all be true at once.

For Shakamon, I have no idea as I don't have any information on where it exists in the world or a reference of its relation to others other than "Rumored to be the being closest to Yggdrasill in the Digital World" which could mean in distance, in its practice (like closest follower of its teachings?), or it literally met the server and keeps consistent communication

 

[Theigno]

This articulates quite nicely what I ,personally, see as a deviation from the original intent of the Digital Monsters franchise. With the addition of newer Digimon and their respective roles in the Digital World, there comes a point where either they come to be limited to a particular incarnation of the franchise within the Digital Multiverse, or a soft reboot of sorts ala Pokemon Journeys where they manage to situate each Digimon group within a broader corpus.

Is this how it's supposed to work?:

I think it's not working but I think that the assumption that there should be something that works is inherently flawed. It could simply be the reality of that world that it doesn't work... and that would seem perfectly reasonable to me.
If the actual religious beliefs can't be fully reconciled, why would the fictional creatures based on them be any more compatible? Why can't they all just roam the world independently, all believing they are the highest authority and occasionally butt heads?
It would make for a chaotic setting for sure, but chaos is not automatically inconsistent and I would argue it's often inherently more believable than order.


Now the graphic just seems to create more questionable implications than it solves...
The inclusion of the crests seems strange because Yggdrasil has never been associated with them, nor have the crests been associated with how the digital world is actually ruled except for being used as a means to unseal the holy beasts in Adventure, who seemed to have done fine before the crests were even around.

The Royal Knights seem to be suspiciously missing even though they'd probably outclass most of the other groups listed there (they'd certainly be more relevant to the world than the Devas at the very least).

If the vertical placement is meant to define some sort of hierarchy, I don't think it adds up, not with Yggdrasil all the way at the top; Yggdrasil is at this point basically the multiverse punching bag, getting corrupted, deleted or otherwise messed with basically every second Tuesday while the God that the Archangels serve is still portrayed as being basically untouched, with some of the Demon Lord's profiles that they might potentially be a threat to him eventually (Yggdrasil, on the other hand was shown to be no match to even a single one of them in Next). So that would also make grouping the Angels under the holy beasts questionable, especially if we take into account that each of the angels' duties encompass the whole world while each of the Holy Beasts are responsible for only a quarter.

I'd imagine the angels are either Yggdrasil's military or simply beings obsessed with Yggdrasil's moral order with the great angels being the leaders

The angels have never been connected to Yggdrasil (and I believe Chronicle X established the Kernel and Yggdrasil's layer of the Digital world to be separate locations) and his modus operandi seems generally emotionless and based on pragmatism rather than having anything to do with morality.

For Shakamon, I have no idea as I don't have any information on where it exists in the world or a reference of its relation to others other than "Rumored to be the being closest to Yggdrasill in the Digital World" which could mean in distance, in its practice (like closest follower of its teachings?), or it literally met the server and keeps consistent communication

Shakamon is meant to be a Buddha so the closeness is almost certainly meant in terms of spirituality and enlightenment.
Perhaps a parallel could be also be drawn between the "ordeals" that Shakamon is said to impose on the digtial world and Yggdrasil's various shenanigans, but perhaps in a more benign way. His profile also states that he protects the eastern part of the Digital World, so if he has anything to do with any of the other big shots it would most likely have to be Qinglongmon.

 

[Jaybird C]

[The absence of a father figure] being more of a secondary thing and not something she broods over much is not that unrealistic.

...Ruki not being super affected [by her parents' divorce] can still be mostly in line with reality.

Lol, so in saying that Ruki's missing dad kinda-sorta matters but not primarily, you agree with me that Konaka saying it doesn't matter at all is wrong.