Unpopular opinions and rants about the Digimon franchize.

Mon-Ohma

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Frankly they should have just had Taichi go with Catherine and be done with it. :p
 

Unknown Neo

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And I say we have Meiko and I like her so here, we have the answer, I'm tired of this again so I'm done. Tai/Meiko is cute. ...Now if only Davis made mention of meeting someone like they say Cody did somewhere. Also Joe.
 

JR9386

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And I say we have Meiko and I like her so here, we have the answer, I'm tired of this again so I'm done. Tai/Meiko is cute. ...Now if only Davis made mention of meeting someone like they say Cody did somewhere. Also Joe.
I mean, beyond Sora and Matt, and Ken and Yolei, none of the couples are canon. For all we know, Tai ended up with Meiko or Catherine.

I don't get why they toyed with Izzy and Mimi if they weren't meant to be endgame. Mind you, I never really followed the original Japanese, but Tri was pretty blatant in trying to show us that Izzy had feelings for Mimi.

Unpopular opinion, but I loved the animation style of both Tri and Kizuna, over the styles we saw in other films.
 

Muur

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The tension with Tai was dub-exclusive, yes.
Tri. just added a bunch of random shiptease between several couples where it wasn’t present before that.

Tri gave into it needlessly, or engaged in a bit of fan service that was meant to fan those flames. Nevertheless, it's there. Tai should have backed off then. Curious though, what exactly was the issue between Tai and Sora in the original Digimon movie (Movie 2 in the original release)?

I think you’ve gotten confused - Raguelmon isn’t dog-headed, but cat-headed, because she, and her entire line are cat-based. Furthermore, the description of her behaviour matches that of the Judaic Archangel Raguel. I can understand why you’d be annoyed that she’s a cat, when Raguel isn’t, similar to how ChoHakkaimon is a girl dressed as a pig instead of a pig monster, which puts her at odds with the more faithful Gokuwmon and Sagomon...but you’re inventing connections that just aren’t there. Raguelmon hunts falling angels not because she is a fury...but because that is literally Raguel’s job. He’s literally known as the Angel of Vengeance, among other things.

I know she's technically based on a cat, but I cited that in my original post that I was willing to stretch that to apply to being dog headed (or I suppose being Beast headed).

Thematically, a Fury, or any of the cited goddesses of rage, divine retribution etc. all fit under the function that Raguelmon serves, justice.

Out of curiosity, what Demon/Fallen Angel Digimon triggered Raguelmon? None in so far as Tri is concerned. Ophanimon Falldown Mode was triggered due to the actions of Raguelmon that resulted in Tai's assumed death.

Yes, sure, you could say she’s ‘like a Fury’ or ‘like -insert goddess of rage here’...but she’s named Raguelmon and does the same job that Raguel does. Ergo, even if she is based loosely on other deities as well, she is still based on Raguel, and so the name is perfectly apt.

It is mentioned that Raguelmon goes after Angel Digimon ‘about to fall’ in her official profile - nothing to do with Tri.
Raguel is also male. The name may have been given to situate the figure within the corpus of the Judaeo-Christian (or more specifically Judaic in this sense.) Angelology as opposed to randomly sticking a figure from paganism amongst the angels. Not that Digimon has ever been strict in its treatment of angels, but nothing about the design proper says "Judaeo-Christian Angel!". Cherubimon is a perfect example of that. It's literally a lagomorph jester, but because it's called Cherubimon, we all just go with it. Ophanimon has more motifs associated with biblical Cherubim than does Cherubimon. It's actually odd that Digimon didn't model the design for Ophanimon on actual Ophanim.

But my unpopular opinion still stands, the naming conventions for a number of Digimon make no sense based on designs alone.

In so far as Raguelmon, I was discussing the figure from Tri, as I cited her Jogress/Fusion form with Ophanimon Falldown Mode becoming Ordinemon.

Valkyries and Haripes are female too, yet the male Hawkmon belonging to Yolei became Valkryimon and Harpymon.

Also, the Three Archangels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are male... yet the Digimon version of the Three Archangels have a girl (Ophanimon). Heck the Seven Great Demon Lords are meant to be 7 male demons as well (the seven princes of hell), yet they made one of them female (Lilithmon). Digimon tend not to care about the gender of the original when they make their monsters and just do whatever.
 

JR9386

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Valkyries and Haripes are female too, yet the male Hawkmon belonging to Yolei became Valkryimon and Harpymon.
You know I stick exclusively to animated media, and even then, it still corresponds to what I said before concerning designs and naming conventions.

Also, the Three Archangels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are male... yet the Digimon version of the Three Archangels have a girl (Ophanimon).

There are Seven Archangels of the Presence. Seraphimon, Ophanimon, and Cherubimon don't correspond to them in form or function. Seraphimon, Ophanimon, and Cherubimon only correspond to their cited Angelic hierarchies. MagnaAngemon, IMO, corresponds to the hierarchy of Archangels.

Heck the Seven Great Demon Lords are meant to be 7 male demons as well (the seven princes of hell), yet they made one of them female (Lilithmon). Digimon tend not to care about the gender of the original when they make their monsters and just do whatever.
Lilithmon is meant to correspond tocan extra-canonical figure from Talmudic lore, and to be a counterpart to Ophanimon. That one doesn't bother me as much. She corresponds in form and function to what she's supposed to be.
 

Muur

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Valkyries and Haripes are female too, yet the male Hawkmon belonging to Yolei became Valkryimon and Harpymon.
You know I stick exclusively to animated media, and even then, it still corresponds to what I said before concerning designs and naming conventions.

Also, the Three Archangels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are male... yet the Digimon version of the Three Archangels have a girl (Ophanimon).

There are Seven Archangels of the Presence. Seraphimon, Ophanimon, and Cherubimon don't correspond to them in form or function. Seraphimon, Ophanimon, and Cherubimon only correspond to their cited Angelic hierarchies. MagnaAngemon, IMO, corresponds to the hierarchy of Archangels.

Heck the Seven Great Demon Lords are meant to be 7 male demons as well (the seven princes of hell), yet they made one of them female (Lilithmon). Digimon tend not to care about the gender of the original when they make their monsters and just do whatever.
Lilithmon is meant to correspond tocan extra-canonical figure from Talmudic lore, and to be a counterpart to Ophanimon. That one doesn't bother me as much. She corresponds in form and function to what she's supposed to be.

The Digimon group are literally named "The Three Archangels". So that means theyre based on Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, the Three Archangels from religion.

And the SGDL are based on the seven prince of hell. Lilithmon is meant to be Asmodeus (a male demon) and her SGDL crest actually outright says Asmodeus on it.

Also I forgot to include Sylphs in my list. Sylphs are female too. (No reason to discount Harypmon and Valkryimon though Yolei literally evolves her Hawkmon to them in media set in the adventure universe)
 

JR9386

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The Digimon group are literally named "The Three Archangels". So that means theyre based on Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, the Three Archangels from religion
The Three Great Angels, again, do not directly correspond to the three main Archangels of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in form and in function. Those three ranks are amongst the three highest angelic choirs of the nine known angelic hierarchies.

Digimon attempted to make it quasi-Trinitarian (Spoiler: That's not how Trinitarian theology works.), but can't really grasp at that without some major issues.

And the SGDL are based on the seven prince of hell. Lilithmon is meant to be Asmodeus (a male demon) and her SGDL crest actually outright says Asmodeus on it.

Lilithmon also functions as a stand in for the Talmudic demoness, Lilith as well as a counterpart for Ophanimon. This is why I said the naming conventions and their corresponding Digimon counterparts do not always fall in line with one another.

But on that note, you also have Lucemon and Daemon as duplicates of one figure...

Also I forgot to include Sylphs in my list. Sylphs are female too. (No reason to discount Harypmon and Valkryimon though Yolei literally evolves her Hawkmon to them in media set in the adventure universe)

Sylphs aren't exclusively female. By extension, neither are Faes.

I can discount them, because as I've established time and again, I'm not keen on external source material when it comes to Adventure. I stick exclusively to animated media, especially where it concerns contradictions to the main continuity.
 

Muur

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the seven princes of hell include both lucifer and satan. not everything considers them to be the same entity, and this includes digimon.

and like I said the "three great angels" are actually the "three archangels". 三大天使. theyre intended to be those three guys with ophanimon as one of them. but this seems like a moot point if you're going to decide "nah theyre not".
 

TMS

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It’s rather myopic to look only at the anime. You can’t judge the creators’ intentions that way.

By the way, Satan and Lucifer are the same figure only in mainstream Christianity (Lucifer wasn’t even the name of an angel, originally). They are two members of the seven princes of Hell according to demonologists. And it seems weird to me that you insists that Seraphimon and company can only be based on what they’re named after when you’re making the opposite claim about Raguelmon not being based on what it’s named after.
 

e105zeta

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There are Seven Archangels of the Presence. Seraphimon, Ophanimon, and Cherubimon don't correspond to them in form or function. Seraphimon, Ophanimon, and Cherubimon only correspond to their cited Angelic hierarchies. MagnaAngemon, IMO, corresponds to the hierarchy of Archangels
Only really Russian Christianity and the Book of Tobit has seven archangels. Most traditions have 4 or 3. Sometimes they even say 4 but just leave out Uriel.

There’s also serious debate as to whether the Sepahim or the Archangels are superior or if they’re the same thing.

Regardless, Seraphimon looks a heck of a lot like some depictions of Michael and Goddramon of all things looks much more like a Seraph than Seraphimon does.
 

citramon

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The tension with Tai was dub-exclusive, yes.
Tri. just added a bunch of random shiptease between several couples where it wasn’t present before that.
Wasn’t the drama between Taichi and Sora in Boku no War game over Taichi not liking Sora’s new hat? That seems like a pre couple spat instead of a just friend thing.
If I recall correctly, Sora had a one-sided crush on Tai in the Adventure light novel adaptation
 

e105zeta

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The tension with Tai was dub-exclusive, yes.
Tri. just added a bunch of random shiptease between several couples where it wasn’t present before that.
Wasn’t the drama between Taichi and Sora in Boku no War game over Taichi not liking Sora’s new hat? That seems like a pre couple spat instead of a just friend thing.
If I recall correctly, Sora had a one-sided crush on Tai in the Adventure light novel adaptation
It just feels like typical “bad timing” kids romance on both their parts and makes it a more interesting story than just plain Sora/Yamato endgame.

The fact that the body language in the epilogue indicates that Sora and Yamato might be separated just makes it even more intriguing.
 

JR9386

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the seven princes of hell include both lucifer and satan. not everything considers them to be the same entity, and this includes digimon.
By the way, Satan and Lucifer are the same figure only in mainstream Christianity (Lucifer wasn’t even the name of an angel, originally). They are two members of the seven princes of Hell according to demonologists.
Satan proper is a title (The Adversary).The name 'Lucifer' itself came to be applied to his role, but again, a title.

Biblically speaking, the figure has multiple names and titles.

I stick with ancient and historic forms of Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) when it comes to the matter of Angelology and Demonology.

and like I said the "three great angels" are actually the "three archangels". 三大天使. theyre intended to be those three guys with ophanimon as one of them. but this seems like a moot point if you're going to decide "nah theyre not".
And it seems weird to me that you insists that Seraphimon and company can only be based on what they’re named after when you’re making the opposite claim about Raguelmon not being based on what it’s named after.

But that seems to be allusory to the three main Archangels (Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael). What of their roles and designs actually communicate anything about them being akin to those biblical counterparts? Mind you, just three of them, not the whole class of that particular Digimon type being akin in role, type, and function to Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael?

Raguelmon is a cat-angel hybrid whose name is the sole allusion to its function. I granted that it serves that function, but that design wise, and thematically (This being the main emphasis of my argument.), it observes the function of being an agent of Justice/Libra (which is,IMO, thematically what the choice of name "Raguel" is meant to allude to). It is multiple figures at once in form and in function, as they all fall under attributes of Justice (Wrath/Retribution/Order/Peace/Mercy etc.). Meiko is never explicitly cited as possessing a crest, but we do see Meicoomon explicitly cited as Libra, and Meiko's digivice accordingly reacting to various stimuli which forces Meicoomon to level up. She represents both Cosmos (Would have been nice to see her Creative aspect emphasized. Why Magnadramon ended up with a Double Helix for a tale intrigues me.) and Chaos in her forms as Libra (Even the name hints at her relationship to Astraea as Rasielmon). So that's my long-winded way of saying, the names are allusory to figures associated with Justice, thematically, than they are to the figure proper. I stated that from the beginning of my responses.

As an addendum to my statement concerning Lillithmon, the figure is associated with succubi, basically demons of lust. That still corresponds to the demon under whose tutelage she's under.

I wonder if perhaps the naming convention of Furymon was passed over, because, given Meicrackmon's design...the jokes just right themselves.

It’s rather myopic to look only at the anime. You can’t judge the creators’ intentions that way.

But it works as a stand alone source regardless of external source material, no?

Aren't there contradictions that exist in the external source material that don't work when scrutinized? I can see it as extra-canonical in the sense that they toyed with those ideas as "theologoumena", but nothing beyond that.

Unpopular opinion: I dislike that higher level bird Digimon often lose the talon hands they develop as beast-man hybrid Digimon?

Houomon is growing on me, even if I find Houomon X the superior design, but find it redundant given Valdurmon's design.
 
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TMS

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Satan proper is a title (The Adversary).The name 'Lucifer' itself came to be applied to his role, but again, a title.

Biblically speaking, the figure has multiple names and titles.

I'm aware of all that. I was pointing out that there are multiple ways of interpreting those figures. They don't have to conform to your specific views on those figures, because their creation had nothing to do with you.

But that seems to be allusory to the three main Archangels (Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael). What of their roles and designs actually communicate anything about them being akin to those biblical counterparts? Mind you, just three of them, not the whole class of that particular Digimon type being akin in role, type, and function to Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael?

Kryten would be the person to field that one. He determined (at least to his own satisfaction) which of them represented which archangel, based on their shared roles.

Raguelmon is a cat-angel hybrid whose name is the sole allusion to its function. I granted that it serves that function, but that design wise, and thematically (This being the main emphasis of my argument.), it observes the function of being an agent of Justice/Libra (which is,IMO, thematically what the choice of name "Raguel" is meant to allude to). It is multiple figures at once in form and in function, as they all fall under attributes of Justice (Wrath/Retribution/Order/Peace/Mercy etc.). Meiko is never explicitly cited as possessing a crest, but we do see Meicoomon explicitly cited as Libra, and Meiko's digivice accordingly reacting to various stimuli which forces Meicoomon to level up. She represents both Cosmos (Would have been nice to see her Creative aspect emphasized. Why Magnadramon ended up with a Double Helix for a tale intrigues me.) and Chaos in her forms as Libra (Even the name hints at her relationship to Astraea as Rasielmon). So that's my long-winded way of saying, the names are allusory to figures associated with Justice, thematically, than they are to the figure proper. I stated that from the beginning of my responses.

Well, here we come up against the fact that a lot of what you call your unpopular opinions are just headcanons you've come up with (all this stuff about Meiko having the Crest of Justice and whatnot). More to the point, the Erinyes' job was to punish human beings. Raguelmon's job, like Raguel's, is to punish other angels. And I don't see any visual resemblance between Raguelmon and an Erinys. You can say it has no resemblance to Raguel either, but to my knowledge no one has ever stated what Raguel is supposed to look like.

But it works as a stand alone source regardless of external source material, no?

Barely. This is Digimon Adventure we're talking about.
 

JR9386

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Kryten would be the person to field that one. He determined (at least to his own satisfaction) which of them represented which archangel, based on their shared roles.

I'd be curious to see what their work on the subject yielded. Based on my limited research on the subject today, it looks like the designation of the "Three Archangels" is limited solely to the three angels from Frontier, which would observe a role akin to them in-universe, not that they were inspired by them in form or function. That said, it appears to be that the creators of Digimon attempted to make them an angelic "Trinity" or rather in this instance, a Triad as manifestations of God (At least as understood within the Digimon Universe.).


Well, here we come up against the fact that a lot of what you call your unpopular opinions are just headcanons you've come up with (all this stuff about Meiko having the Crest of Justice and whatnot). More to the point, the Erinyes' job was to punish human beings. Raguelmon's job, like Raguel's, is to punish other angels. And I don't see any visual resemblance between Raguelmon and an Erinys. You can say it has no resemblance to Raguel either, but to my knowledge no one has ever stated what Raguel is supposed to look like.

Unless I missed something from the dub, what angel was Raguelmon seeking to punish? She had already manifested prior to Ophanimon Falldown Mode appearing, and her lower forms were already wreaking havoc on other digital life forms. As a species that may be what Raguelmon is, but the Raguelmon of Tri? At least when merged with Ophanimon Falldown Mode and becoming Ordinemon, corrupted or not, she had her sites set on destroying/rebooting our world as well.

I wouldn't, per se, call it a headcanon, when, at least in so far as the dub, Meicoomon is explicitly called 'Libra'. She is Balance, representing Chaos, and Gatomon representing Cosmos. It's implicit to Homeostasis'design/desire to maintain the balance between Light and Darkness.

Raguel is never described in the Book of Enoch, and the images on Google invariably depict St.Michael the Archangel, which doesn't help in so far as the purposes of this discussion.


Ophanimon Falldown Mode and Ordinemon invariably (respectively in stylized manner) fit the description of the Erinyes to a T:

"g. Tisiphone, Alecto, and Megaera, the Erinnyes or Furies, live in Erebus, and are older than Zeus or any of the other Olympians. Their task is to hear complaints brought by mortals against the insolence of the young to the aged, of children to parents, of hosts to guests, and of householders or city councils to suppliants – and to punish such crimes by hounding the culprits relentlessly, without rest or pause, from city to city and from country to country. These Erinnyes are crones, with snakes for hair, dogs’ heads, coal-black bodies, bats’ wings, and bloodshot eyes. In their hands they carry brass-studded scourges, and their victims die in torment.13 It is unwise to mention them by name in conversation; hence they are usually styled the Eumenides, which means ‘The Kindly Ones’ – as Hades is styled Pluton, or Pluto, ‘The Rich One’." - https://onlinereadfreenovel.com/robert-graves/page,16,36100-the_greek_myths.amp

Snakes for hair (Ordinemon), Coal black bodies (This is a bit of a stretch, but I'll grant Ordinemon's wings, and alternatively Ophanimon Falldown Mode being deprived of any color.), bat's wings (Ophanimon Falldown Mode), Bloodshot eyes (Ophanimon Falldown Mode and Meicrackmon), dog's head (I know that technically Meicoomon/Meicrackmon/Raguelmon is a cat, but I'm willing to grant this as just beast headed. Ophanimon FM likewise has a lion atop of her head armor, which can fall into this category with her as Lyssa/Ira, and alternatively, they both fit the bill with Sekhmet), Brass studded (Ophanimon Falldown Mode has stylized studs on her armor)

I think I've had my fill on goddess images for the day, but honestly, I think the names are more thematic in nature than descriptive of their designs proper. That's what I have maintained from the beginning. The names not always corresponding to the designs.

Speaking of which, I wonder if Valkyriemon was perhaps intended to be based on the Einherjar. It keeps the association with the holy, and the Valkyries (D'Arcmon and Angewomon could have both been renamed Valkyriemon. The latter probably fits the bill better.), with a Norse-esque theme having been the intention of the final forms IIRC for 02 having been abandoned. I really like the design for Valkyriemon as an alternate Mega for Angemon, but equally like it for Hawkmon, even if Chronomon Holy Mode has grown on me.
 

TMS

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So your argument is that a Digimon is only based on something in certain contexts? Like, Dagomon in Adventure 02 is based on Cthulhu, because he acts like Cthulhu, but isn't based on Cthulhu in Xros Wars, because he doesn't act like Cthulhu? Raguelmon is only conditionally based on Raguel? I mean, you're welcome to your opinion, but that seems ridiculous to me. Nor do I think that the description given of the Erinyes helps your case much. The only thing they actually have in common with the Digimon in question are the bat wings for Fall-Down Mode (something just about every fallen angel and demon Digimon have). Everything else is a definite stretch, making it very hard to believe it's intentional.

And yeah, all that stuff about Chaos and Cosmos is headcanon.
 

e105zeta

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I wouldn't, per se, call it a headcanon, when, at least in so far as the dub, Meicoomon is explicitly called 'Libra'. She is Balance, representing Chaos, and Gatomon representing Cosmos. It's implicit to Homeostasis'design/desire to maintain the balance between Light and Darkness.
In the original at least, it’s made fairly clear that the Libra refers to her being the reincarnation of Apocalymon. How isn’t specified: she could be the potential light to his darkness or his “reward” of sorts for absorbing the grudges of dead Digimon and having a miserable first life.

Since Meicoomon had the memories of all Digimon backed up, you could argue that’s similar to Apocalymon’s concept of carrying the regrets of Digimon that die during evolution.

This concept of “Justice” you’ve invented is wholly fanon and not supported in the text.

The only connection Tailmon and Meicoomon seem to have is “genetic” given that they’re obviously related species - something that Hikari mentions in passing.
 

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Since it seems like this conversation has somewhat derailed the topic, let's talk about something more relevant. Discussion can be continued in PMs if people feel it necessary.
 

Jaybird C

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Unpopular opinion: the best part of Runaway Locomon is everything before Locomon starts rampaging, and Konaka's statements suggesting that Ruki's missing father shouldn't matter to her character is a black mark on his qualifications as an artist.
 
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