Unpopular opinions and rants about the Digimon franchize.

AquaKai

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Japan has translated it as Reliabilty before though. Same for Mimi with Sincerity. So they're not mistranslated.

these are from the japanese exclusive Megane Ichiba glasses promotion, where you cant even get the glasses unless you live in japan

joe's is Seijitsu no Monshou, meaning "To be faithful, sincere, honest, and reliable. " so there are four options you can go for. the dub went for reliability, toeis official translation went for one of the other ones. reliability isnt incorrect

and until toei translated it as crest of sincerity didnt most people fan translate it to crest of innocence?
Those images could very be because they know that's how it has been officially translated in english, instead of them being a direct translation. It wouldn't be the first time they use an "official" english term, no matter how wrong it is as a translation. Heck, Japanese do tend to make a lot of mistakes when transliterating. (Recode\record anyone?)

I'm no expert in the Japanese language, but honestly in all my researches I never found reliable as a meaning of 誠実; the closest thing I found is seriousness as a synonym. Reliable means something very precise to me in english (as well as in my mother language).

Similarly, Mimi's crest should be the "Crest of Truth", since her whole thing is that her always saying what's on her mind gives her a kind of endearing childish innocence that inspires people. But it's not quite the same thing as the "Crest of Innocence" it's more like a "The Crest that Abhors Deception and Artifice".
What you describe is exactly Purity, in the sense of child purity, i.e. no filters.

Speaking of Sore people have a problem with Dark Gennai licking Sora, well here is a little secret he is the bad guy. Besides I find Dark Gennai really enterteining in a Batman 1966 villain kind of way.
I personally found that part really entertaining, it glimpsed a darker course of events that could have mixed well with mature topics (not porn, mind you!), seeing how the characters are older too.
Also, yeah, I like bad guys who act as bad guys.
 
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JR9386

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I don't speak Japanese, but I input it here and this is what came up:




Results, 誠実

JLPTN1★【せいじつseijitsu】 Inflection
adjectival noun / noun:
  • sincere; honest; faithful
彼女kanojoはha約束yakusokuをwo誠実seijitsuにni守ったmamotta。 She was faithful to her promise.
View
Kanji definition:



常用6年JLPTN1
セイSEIまことmakoto
sincerity; admonish; warn; prohibit; truth; fidelity
Strokes:13Radical:言訁 speechSKIP:1-7-6UTF:8aa0JIS208:32-31Nanori:きよkiyo・さとsato・しげshige・ともtomo・のぶnobu・まma・まこmako・まさmasaHangul:성 [seong]Pinyin:chéngStroke order:Example words:
誠に【まことにmakotoni】indeed; really; absolutely; truly; actually; very; quite
誠実【せいじつseijitsu】sincere; honest; faithful
誠意【せいいseii】sincerity; good faith
丹誠【たんせいtansei】working earnestly; sincerity; diligence; effort; pains
【まことmakoto】truth; reality; / sincerity; honesty; integrity; fidelity; / that's right



常用3年JLPTN3
ジツJITSUシツSHITSUmi・みのるmino.ru・まことmakoto・みのmino・みちるmichi.ru
reality; truth
Strokes:8Radical:宀 roofSKIP:2-3-5UTF:5b9fJIS208:28-34Nanori:ぐみgumi・さねsaneHangul:실 [sil]Pinyin:shíStroke order:Example words:
現実【げんじつgenjitsu】reality; actuality; hard fact
事実【じじつjijitsu】fact; truth; reality
実施【じっしjisshi】enforcement; implementation; putting into practice; carrying out; operation; working (e.g. working parameters); enactment
実力【じつりょくjitsuryoku】(real) ability; true strength; merit; efficiency; competency; / arms; force
実際【じっさいjissai】practicality; practical; / reality; actuality; actual conditions; / bhutakoti (limit of reality)

When I typed in 'Reliability'I also got this:


Definition of 確実

JLPTN3★【かくじつkakujitsu】 Inflection
adjectival noun / noun:
  • certainty; reliability; soundness

I think the term you're looking for is "Constancy".
 

Theigno

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However, that usually brings up questions pertaining to the soul which Digimon doesn't have a good grasp of those themes IMO (Accidental unpopular opinion?). The closest we got to something like that was with Labramon in the Tamers film (Pokémon sorta went there when we learned the doctor who worked on Mewtwo cloned his daughter.). But nothing substantial in so far as the soul is concerned. This might actually be my gripe with Kizuna. Ignoring the 02 epilogue, Kizuna gives the impression that not only does the partnership end, but that the Digimon partner ceases to exist. The film didn't earn getting us to that point. Especially with everything we learned about Digimon being reborn etc., it gives the impression that they're practically immortal, or close to it, but slips the rug from beneath us.

@Theigno, what are your thoughts on that particular point? Do you think Kizuna grappled with the subject of mortal vs. immortal souls well enough
The "grasp" on souls in Digimon seems to be mostly pragmatic I'd say.... and Kizuna really didn't grapple with Digimon souls all that much, I guess we should be happy about that single line Agumon had about not wanting to disappear but that's not exactly "grappling" on its own. And if there was any deeper frustrations concerning that they might be facing a kind of total annihilation that other Digimon in the digital world don't have to deal with they are not showing it.

Japan has translated it as Reliabilty before though. Same for Mimi with Sincerity. So they're not mistranslated.

these are from the japanese exclusive Megane Ichiba glasses promotion, where you cant even get the glasses unless you live in japan

joe's is Seijitsu no Monshou, meaning "To be faithful, sincere, honest, and reliable. " so there are four options you can go for. the dub went for reliability, toeis official translation went for one of the other ones. reliability isnt incorrect
You act like anything before tri was fan translated and not based on official products which is not the case.

Purity for Mimi's crest and Sincerity for Joe's are official translations:
Image Thumbnail (custom)
Image Thumbnail (custom)

and until toei translated it as crest of sincerity didnt most people fan translate it to crest of innocence?
Almost no one did.

Yeah but you gotta pretend one of them didn't happen. Stingmon helping Ken be a cop seemed more fitting
Usually that's called "A theory being debunked", regardless of how fitting it sounds.


I do not think that it is really a problem if a lower level Digimon can defeat a higher level Digimon. Trust me before there was the original animated series there was the Digimon World video game and as somebody who has played a bit of it I can tell you that being a higher level is far from guaranteeing your Digimon to win against a lower level Digimon.
I mean we see lower level Digimon putting up decent fights against higher level opponents in pretty much every anime, so I don't think anyone would claim that it's impossible in the first place.
But using gameplay isn't really much of an argument for anything either way. A game will always favor an experience reflecting the players skill over being consistent with the setting. That you can kill ZeedMillenniummon with Patamon in Battle Spirit 1.5 does not really indicate that he could totally do it in the general lore, same for DW1 speedruns using Birdramon to flatten everything in their path with meteors. It's more about what is possible within a game's abstractions.


Kizune was good but it was honestly not Toy Story 3 level of closure. In fact Adventure 02 feelt as just as much if not more of a closure then Kizune.
I feel on their own both Kizuna and Zero Two "work" as providing closure but the problem is that the closure they provide is conflicting with no reasonable explanation being provided from how they got from kizuna to the epilogue when they just redefined how partnerships are supposed to work.

Making up fan theories about what could possibly maybe happen is kind of missing the point of the criticism from a writing perspective.

Because a story is not a statement of where the characters end up (which is all the epilogue is), it is about exploring how they end up there and all the obstacles on the way.
Zero Two was in a position where there really weren't any obstacles in the way, so it worked in the way of extrapolation, even if quite a few parts of it were stretching it a bit. Kizuna has now put immense practical obstacles (you can't get much more extreme than natural laws) in the way of the epilogue and just kind of pretends like it isn't a big deal.
But it's definitely a big enough deal to provide fodder for conflict for the narrative... except there is no more proper narrative.
It's not good storytelling to just not tell the story.


The presence of Ultimates in Kizuna is something I would personally ignore, because in most other incarnations of the anime, a stark distinction between The Chosen Children ™️ and everyone else across the globe with a digimon partner has always been present.
When the international chosen and their partners came to support the fight against BelialVamdemon, there were a few Perfect Digimon among them as well, so super evolution without crests seemed to be possible, but probably not very often if most international chosen didn't have their partners for very long.


Better question is, where does their data go if they died in the Real World? Isn't that defacto game over?
If Wizarmon and Vamdemon are anything to go by, the data just kind of sticks around without a physical body. The world of the epilogue is probably getting increasingly haunted by digital ghosts.
 
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JR9386

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The "grasp" on souls in Digimon seems to be mostly pragmatic I'd say.... and Kizuna really didn't grapple with Digimon souls all that much, I guess we should be happy about that single line Agumon had about not wanting to disappear but that's not exactly "grappling" on its own. And if there was any deeper frustrations concerning that they might be facing a kind of total annihilation that other Digimon in the digital world don't have to deal with they are not showing it.
But this presents so many other issues, because these are rational beings. They are able to contemplate their own existence. This isn't merely a quirk of partner digimon, but all digimon.

Other digimon, as you stated, seem to get out of this dilemma by having their data reconfigured and being reborn. You would think that being a partner digimon would have more of a benefit to circumvent that problem. However, perhaps that is the whole point? Perhaps other digimon are more beast like in nature, and do not have the benefit of ever truly contemplating their existence in the way that the partner digimon do through their interactions with the Chosen Children. Something to think about in relation to the Bond forms, which if properly addressed, would have major implications. The potential being achieved isn't solely that of the Chosen Children, but of the Digimon themselves. They actualized their truest forms. The original tale of The Little Mermaid explores a similar theme. Once the mermaid dies, she becomes a sylph. Sylphs are able to obtain immortal souls by aiding children in good works, whereas mermaids only live for 300 or so years and then become foam. It's a tangent, but a more satisfactory one. The final battle with Menoa was meaningless, because of how anticlimactic it was. Menoa should have gone completely apesh!t seeing that what she could not achieve was actually possible if she had gone about it properly. Sure, she gets arrested, but there isn't that payoff, because she ends up being right in the end. They lose their partners. What was the point of showing us the Bond Forms? Nothing was transcended.

I think the infantilization of Agumon and Co. in Kizuna is what made it worse, because of all the literal hand-holding. It gives the impression that Tai was letting his little brother die.

If Wizarmon and Vamdemon are anything to go by, the data just kind of sticks around without a physical body. The world of the epilogue is probably getting increasingly haunted by digital ghosts.
Which is what makes Kizuna all the more difficult to reconcile. As a film in and of itself, it's great. But as part of the broader series? :/
 

Yamato-san

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The presence of Ultimates in Kizuna is something I would personally ignore, because in most other incarnations of the anime, a stark distinction between The Chosen Children ™️ and everyone else across the globe with a digimon partner has always been present.
When the international chosen and their partners came to support the fight against BelialVamdemon, there were a few Perfect Digimon among them as well, so super evolution without crests seemed to be possible, but probably not very often if most international chosen didn't have their partners for very long.
Heh, I actually paused and looked at some of the shots in that scene a long time ago. Some of the Partner Digimon included things like Okuwamon, Monzaemon, and Parrotmon. And even earlier, some of the Australian kids appeared with Hangyomon and (depending on what level you think it is) Whamon. Considering there wasn't a single Ultimate (Mega) among their ranks, I'm sure there was at least some conscious decision-making here rather than just throwing in whatever random Digimon they could think of.
 

JR9386

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The presence of Ultimates in Kizuna is something I would personally ignore, because in most other incarnations of the anime, a stark distinction between The Chosen Children ™️ and everyone else across the globe with a digimon partner has always been present.
When the international chosen and their partners came to support the fight against BelialVamdemon, there were a few Perfect Digimon among them as well, so super evolution without crests seemed to be possible, but probably not very often if most international chosen didn't have their partners for very long.
Heh, I actually paused and looked at some of the shots in that scene a long time ago. Some of the Partner Digimon included things like Okuwamon, Monzaemon, and Parrotmon. And even earlier, some of the Australian kids appeared with Hangyomon and (depending on what level you think it is) Whamon. Considering there wasn't a single Ultimate (Mega) among their ranks, I'm sure there was at least some conscious decision-making here rather than just throwing in whatever random Digimon they could think of.
Fair enough, though perhaps its a ripple effect from the Original Chosen Children? Perhaps in some way shape or form that energy made its way to all children with partners? Because it adds a plot hole to make such a big deal about the Crests in season 1, and not being able to achieve Ultimate without Jogress in 02 if Ultimate was achievable without those. If non-Chosen Children (TM) can do it, why can't THE Chosen Children (TM) do it? Ken still has a physical Crest, what's stopping him?
 

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I think the infantilization of Agumon and Co. in Kizuna is what made it worse, because of all the literal hand-holding. It gives the impression that Tai was letting his little brother die.
I don't think Last Evolution is alone in that regard. As early as the first arc of 02 we had Tailmon commenting on how the children keep getting older, but the Digimon always stay the same.
 

PCN24454

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The presence of Ultimates in Kizuna is something I would personally ignore, because in most other incarnations of the anime, a stark distinction between The Chosen Children ™️ and everyone else across the globe with a digimon partner has always been present.
When the international chosen and their partners came to support the fight against BelialVamdemon, there were a few Perfect Digimon among them as well, so super evolution without crests seemed to be possible, but probably not very often if most international chosen didn't have their partners for very long.
Heh, I actually paused and looked at some of the shots in that scene a long time ago. Some of the Partner Digimon included things like Okuwamon, Monzaemon, and Parrotmon. And even earlier, some of the Australian kids appeared with Hangyomon and (depending on what level you think it is) Whamon. Considering there wasn't a single Ultimate (Mega) among their ranks, I'm sure there was at least some conscious decision-making here rather than just throwing in whatever random Digimon they could think of.
Fair enough, though perhaps its a ripple effect from the Original Chosen Children? Perhaps in some way shape or form that energy made its way to all children with partners? Because it adds a plot hole to make such a big deal about the Crests in season 1, and not being able to achieve Ultimate without Jogress in 02 if Ultimate was achievable without those. If non-Chosen Children (TM) can do it, why can't THE Chosen Children (TM) do it? Ken still has a physical Crest, what's stopping him?
I always viewed it as giving up the power to digivolve so I was never confused by that 02 plot point.
 

JR9386

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The presence of Ultimates in Kizuna is something I would personally ignore, because in most other incarnations of the anime, a stark distinction between The Chosen Children ™️ and everyone else across the globe with a digimon partner has always been present.
When the international chosen and their partners came to support the fight against BelialVamdemon, there were a few Perfect Digimon among them as well, so super evolution without crests seemed to be possible, but probably not very often if most international chosen didn't have their partners for very long.
Heh, I actually paused and looked at some of the shots in that scene a long time ago. Some of the Partner Digimon included things like Okuwamon, Monzaemon, and Parrotmon. And even earlier, some of the Australian kids appeared with Hangyomon and (depending on what level you think it is) Whamon. Considering there wasn't a single Ultimate (Mega) among their ranks, I'm sure there was at least some conscious decision-making here rather than just throwing in whatever random Digimon they could think of.
Fair enough, though perhaps its a ripple effect from the Original Chosen Children? Perhaps in some way shape or form that energy made its way to all children with partners? Because it adds a plot hole to make such a big deal about the Crests in season 1, and not being able to achieve Ultimate without Jogress in 02 if Ultimate was achievable without those. If non-Chosen Children (TM) can do it, why can't THE Chosen Children (TM) do it? Ken still has a physical Crest, what's stopping him?
I always viewed it as giving up the power to digivolve so I was never confused by that 02 plot point.

I'm there with you on it being thematically appropriate that they would give up the ability to achieve those higher forms, but it still presents a problem in so far as Ken. He still has the ability to achieve that higher level as he still has a physical Crest which *could* provide that boost to Stingmon.

Whether the original Crests were intended to release/boost the power of the Four Sovereigns, safeguard/restore the Digital World, and/or forge the Digimentals, they originally served a purpose related to digivolution. Once the Sovereigns are restored, no real reason to feature them during the sequences in Tri or Kizuna. Sure, those virtues were always present inside of them, but that would also make them less unique amongst digidestined.


For instance, I suppose if Chichi (Jap.)/Maria (Eng. dub) were to experience some non-specific emotional/virtuous outburst, her Monochromon could theoretically become Triceramon, and if she pushed him far enough, some other Mega level digimon? I'm being somewhat facetious in how I am describing this, but the condensed version is as follows, if any partnered digimon can achieve it without a Crest, well, it's not so unique anymore. I suppose that also means that some Chosen Children the world over could likewise have partners capable of sustaining higher forms as in the case of the Frigimon and Meramon we see.
 

e105zeta

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I think the infantilization of Agumon and Co. in Kizuna is what made it worse, because of all the literal hand-holding. It gives the impression that Tai was letting his little brother die.
I don't think Last Evolution is alone in that regard. As early as the first arc of 02 we had Tailmon commenting on how the children keep getting older, but the Digimon always stay the same.
It’s really freaking weird given that the core thing about Digimon is that they grow through massive, incongruous changes as they grow. Far more than humans. And Tailmon herself went through a series of drastic personality growth and changes but then just froze when she met Hikari.
 

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I know this is an unpopulare opinion thread but just to be sure can we all agree that 02 is the worst thing to officially come out of the Adventure series after Digimon Adventure: Anocode Tamer and Cathode Tamer and it's sequel games.
 

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I think the infantilization of Agumon and Co. in Kizuna is what made it worse, because of all the literal hand-holding. It gives the impression that Tai was letting his little brother die.
I don't think Last Evolution is alone in that regard. As early as the first arc of 02 we had Tailmon commenting on how the children keep getting older, but the Digimon always stay the same.
It’s really freaking weird given that the core thing about Digimon is that they grow through massive, incongruous changes as they grow. Far more than humans. And Tailmon herself went through a series of drastic personality growth and changes but then just froze when she met Hikari.
I never really gave much thought to her being an Adult/Champion level digimon, because of how underutilized she was when she became a partner digimon. In 02 she was basically at Rookie power, but still a Champion, so that shouldn't have changed her mentality .I suppose that Meicoomon has the same issue. I wanted to say that's just how things are amongst all the Chosen Children's digimon, but then we have Hawkmon, Wormmon, Tentomon, and Gomamon. Mind you, I'm working off of the dub, but they seemed to be less dependant on their partners to engage in action. These are things that Silphymon short should have handled as it was the first time we saw the digimon on their own.

I know that it's an odd comparison, but if anyone remembers the short from the first Pokemon movie, and that one episode where Pikachu is stranded on that island with the amusement park, we get a lot more character development regarding the Pokemon themselves in their element. Digimon didn't quite provide us anything comparable that I can recall. I mean, maybe there was an episode in season 1 that might have done something related? I don't recall.

But speaking of characterization, was Biyomon radically different in the Japanese than she was in the dub? I ask, because of how she behaved in Tri after the reboot. It wasn't just the voice actress, or the reboot itself, Biyomon just seemed off as a whole. I know Sora was going through some things, but Biyomon was just generally prickly and nothing like the Biyomon I remember from growing up. I could see the transition into Birddramon, and quite possibly something more draconic (I guess I somewhat used to headcanon that most of the partner digimon had a reptilian quality to them (ie. Palmon), or had that potential.). That's a side note, but it was the first time I had really considered Biyomon apart from Sora as her own character.

I guess it has been bugging me for a while, but what exactly is Sora's purpose in Adventure? She gets short shrift in almost ALL incarnations of the franchise, whether it be thematiacally, evolution sequences etc. Sora just gets no love. Mimi, Kari, Yolei, etc. all get to be involved in some way, but Sora, she's sorta just there. Kizuna was basically the biggest disappointment. So not quite an unpopular opinion, but why include her?


I know this is an unpopulare opinion thread but just to be sure can we all agree that 02 is the worst thing to officially come out of the Adventure series after Digimon Adventure: Anocode Tamer and Cathode Tamer and it's sequel games.

I wouldn't be inclined to say that it's the worst. As hard as I come down on 02 here, it was the first season that got me psyched enough to purchase digimon merchandise. I even have a Veemon walking plushy, along with ALL three evolution sets for the main three-partner digimon... But I digress. The problem with 02 is that it threw so many different concepts into the mix. Concepts that would have worked better as part of a different series. Armor evolution is one of my favorite forms, but it later went the route of absurdity with armored forms that weren't really armor forms proper. It then moves on to Ken's redemption, with allusions to external material via a "Ryo-figure", but doesn't invest itself much in that. Now Champion forms are accessible to the 02 Cast, because they figure out that knocking over a Control Spire/Tower = unlocking Champion? Shouldn't they have figured that out already when we see the original Chosen Children partners achieve Champion? I guess we should ignore that, because ARMOR! But how could I forget, Ken goes through a whole redemption phase with Stingmon... why didn't he use Stingmon from the show's inception? He's more of what he was looking for in a partner digimon, and theoretically should have known that form from the past... But, what do you know, achieving Champion is just a gateway to newer forms to circumvent obstacles to higher forms of digivolution! Enter Jogress and the introduction of The Undead Spider Duo, who are able to create digimon and look human! But plot twist, they're not the brains behind it all, it's some random guy who knew Cody's dad and is after kids with dark flowers that Ken knows about! Enter International Team Digital, because guess who is back, Demon Vampire Man 3.0! But if we weren't already saturated with enough digimon, we're going to have every possible form present in the Wish Realm, who somehow are able to coexist simultaneously?
 

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For instance, I suppose if Chichi (Jap.)/Maria (Eng. dub) were to experience some non-specific emotional/virtuous outburst, her Monochromon could theoretically become Triceramon, and if she pushed him far enough, some other Mega level digimon? I'm being somewhat facetious in how I am describing this, but the condensed version is as follows, if any partnered digimon can achieve it without a Crest, well, it's not so unique anymore.
That's not a valid objection, you know. You are the one who insists that the eight children have to be unique. The show does not state that there's anything unique about them besides their accidentally having been among the first kids chosen.

It’s really freaking weird given that the core thing about Digimon is that they grow through massive, incongruous changes as they grow. Far more than humans. And Tailmon herself went through a series of drastic personality growth and changes but then just froze when she met Hikari.
Their bodies change during instant evolution, but their minds do not. Tailmon's lack of growth after meeting Hikari could easily be attributed to the fact that her time as a partner Digimon was very brief compared to the many years she lived and evolved alone in the Digital World.

I wanted to say that's just how things are amongst all the Chosen Children's digimon, but then we have Hawkmon, Wormmon, Tentomon, and Gomamon. Mind you, I'm working off of the dub, but they seemed to be less dependant on their partners to engage in action.
Can't say I ever noticed a difference. Were there any examples of noticeable independence that you had in mind?

But speaking of characterization, was Biyomon radically different in the Japanese than she was in the dub? I ask, because of how she behaved in Tri after the reboot. It wasn't just the voice actress, or the reboot itself, Biyomon just seemed off as a whole. I know Sora was going through some things, but Biyomon was just generally prickly and nothing like the Biyomon I remember from growing up.
I probably don't remember the dub very well, but I can't think of any major differences. After the reboot, all of the partner Digimon were wary of the humans, and Pyocomon in particular probably didn't care much for Sora after being stepped on.

I know this is an unpopulare opinion thread but just to be sure can we all agree that 02 is the worst thing to officially come out of the Adventure series after Digimon Adventure: Anocode Tamer and Cathode Tamer and it's sequel games.
I liked 02, so no.

But if we weren't already saturated with enough digimon, we're going to have every possible form present in the Wish Realm, who somehow are able to coexist simultaneously?
Different world, different rules.

(By the way, you forgot to mention Demon's sudden appearance from the World of Darkness.)
 

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I agree with TMS, the "original kids" aren't anything special/unique and it's not like they were the first to get Ultimates/Megas - Daigo's group did it before them. Limiting things above Champion to 8 people out of 7 billion... would be terrible storytelling. Do you expecg these same 8 kids to travel worldwide to stop all threats? like, a Mega shows up in Africa. It's 4am in Japan at the time. Tai's group have to deal with this instead of some people in Africa? by the time theyve woken the kids up and flown them over, the village is prob destroyed and everyone is dead. Only way to stop this sort of thing would be to have it where Megas only attack the same City every single time forever so that Tai and his friends can deal with it every time, and never attack any where else. That sure would be even worse storytelling.

We saw A ShogunGekomon partner in Kizuna (and a Divermon in 02, as pointed out) - meaning random people can achieve Ultimate and Mega. Crests mean nothing. They're merch to brainwash IRL kids into buying keychains. They aren't even special in universe. They get destroyed and they go "lol they don't actually mean anything". Mega itself is nothing special - Mega is the level with the highest amount of Digimon. Everyone and their Nan has them. And hell, you don't even need your partner to evolve - we literally see Ken evolve Agumon to Ultimate twice and we see Ryo evolve the entire cast of the first season and 02 to Mega in the Wonderswan games. Anyone can evolve Digimon, doesn't even have to be their partners.
 

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That's not a valid objection, you know. You are the one who insists that the eight children have to be unique. The show does not state that there's anything unique about them besides their accidentally having been among the first kids chosen.
And yet, they're the same group that Homeostasis and Co. keep coming back to when it concerns the fate of both worlds. Sure there are digidestined across the globe now, but that chain of events was set off, because of this core group of children that superceded the previous set of Chosen Children.

I'm not one to shy away from saying that the writers weren't internally consistent. The Crests, internal to the continuity of the show, served a particular purpose. The physical Crests were mere conduits of the virtues they drew power from. However, it begs the question of what they gave up that released the Sovereigns from their prison, but likewise prohibited them from evolving past Champion. Whatever that *it* was, somehow wasn't taken away from International Children, but was taken away from the group that had trekked into the Digital World, exposed the World to Digimon, and restored balance by restoring the sovereigns?

But I guess, Azulongmon giving them a digicore resolves that problem?

Nah.

That's on the writers.

Jogress is likewise undermined if that natural progression to Ultimate and Mega is common. Maybe the Chosen Children from Japan are the weakest of them all that they would need to rely on Crests, Jogress etc. to advance to that point. Maybe Homeostasis and the Four Sovereigns are salty and dispense that ability with caution when it comes to Chosen Children from Japan?

Can't say I ever noticed a difference. Were there any examples of noticeable independence that you had in mind?
Off the top of my head, from recent memory, Gomamon in Tri. He actually takes care of Joe, but also realizes a shift in their relationship to the point that he realizes that maybe Joe doesn't need him anymore. Most of the other partner digimon didn't display that sort of independence until Kizuna.

As to the main series, Gatomon under Myotismon. When she was a "feral" non-partner digimon, she was able to engage differently with the situations presented before her. She reasoned on her own. As soon as she became a partner digimon, and she became a quasi Rookie, she appeared to depend more on Kari.

After the reboot, all of the partner Digimon were wary of the humans, and Pyocomon in particular probably didn't care much for Sora after being stepped on.
I found Biyomon to be a lot more apprehensive than most of the other partner digimon. Sure they were all scared, but Biyomon's disposition gave the impression that the bond itself was severed. Almost as if Sora had to force it upon her. Its a real pity that things would turn out as they did in Kizuna...

it's not like they were the first to get Ultimates/Megas - Daigo's group did it before them.
Daigo's group didn't achieve Mega of their own accord, Homeostasis had to actively intervene to manifest that process. How they achieved Ultimate, we don't know. However, we have no indication that Daigo and Co. were conceived of as we saw them in Tri when Adventure was conceived of. They honestly add nothing to Tri, their inclusion was was basically to finally address this mysterious set of Chosen Children. Chosen Children who just so happened to be from Japan.

Limiting things above Champion to 8 people out of 7 billion... would be terrible storytelling. Do you expecg these same 8 kids to travel worldwide to stop all threats? like, a Mega shows up in Africa. It's 4am in Japan at the time. Tai's group have to deal with this instead of some people in Africa? by the time theyve woken the kids up and flown them over, the village is prob destroyed and everyone is dead. Only way to stop this sort of thing would be to have it where Megas only attack the same City every single time forever so that Tai and his friends can deal with it every time, and never attack any where else. That sure would be even worse storytelling.
Megas weren't common when the series had first been conceived of. They were relatively rare.

As to your second line of inquiry, that's a loaded question. It presupposes that high level digimon are willy-nilly popping up in our world. We honestly don't know what the threat of digimon are like outside of Japan. They could be infrequent enough that the necessity to evolve into higher forms doesn't factor in much. It also ignores the possibility that perhaps some people are partnered with higher level digimon.

The show doesn't take the threat seriously enough to address the implications of digimon in our world in say the manner that Tamers did. But by this point in time, Digimon are supposedly common, because everyone has a partner, or did we only get to that point when Kizuna remembered the presence of other Chosen Children across the globe which Tri ignored?

As to merchandising, that's neither here nor there. The characters are not aware of us as an audience. These various devices serve a purpose in the course of the story. That they were later abandoned when it became convenient to the plot *is* bad storytelling. Bond of Courage? Bond of Friendship? Evolution sequences that feature the emblems of the Crests (Tri), all of that should not have been featured, as it had already been superceced. Unless of course, those thematic devices serve a legitimate purpose in the course of the story. Might as well properly tie them in to the merchandise!
 

TMS

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And yet, they're the same group that Homeostasis and Co. keep coming back to when it concerns the fate of both worlds.
I don't buy that. The superceded Chosen Children no longer had partners, because one of them was dead and the others were the Four Holy Beasts keeping the Digital World in balance. That being the case, it's a mere question of experience. The eight Chosen Children from Adventure are the go-to option because they already know what they're doing and can already reach the Ultimate level.

Off the top of my head, from recent memory, Gomamon in Tri. He actually takes care of Joe, but also realizes a shift in their relationship to the point that he realizes that maybe Joe doesn't need him anymore. Most of the other partner digimon didn't display that sort of independence until Kizuna.

As to the main series, Gatomon under Myotismon. When she was a "feral" non-partner digimon, she was able to engage differently with the situations presented before her. She reasoned on her own. As soon as she became a partner digimon, and she became a quasi Rookie, she appeared to depend more on Kari.
I was more asking about what made the 02 partners seem more independent.

Daigo's group didn't achieve Mega of their own accord, Homeostasis had to actively intervene to manifest that process.
Can we really say that the Adventure kids "achieved Ultimate on their own"? It was thanks to a random prophecy Gennai found, not through any breakthrough of theirs.
 

JR9386

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I don't buy that. The superceded Chosen Children no longer had partners, because one of them was dead and the others were the Four Holy Beasts keeping the Digital World in balance. That being the case, it's a mere question of experience. The eight Chosen Children from Adventure are the go-to option because they already know what they're doing and can already reach the Ultimate level.

And yet they failed in that respect because they were imprisoned.

I honestly don't think it was a wise decision to have made the Four Sovereigns the former partners of the previous Chosen Children, or if they did, not the way it was handled in Tri. Nothing in 02 ever hinted at that being the case. It was a last-minute decision that didn't really add to the story. Sure, Maki and Co. knew about the Digital World, but where were they to provide mentorship during the 02 era?

I honestly don't believe that it was ever intended for us to learn the identity of that original crew. I think it was intended to provide a history of sorts for there being some obscure set of legendary humans who were previously involved in the Digital World. Digimon Tri wasn't the medium to explore the material. It took away from whatever story was intended with Meicoomon and Libra. A storyline that was ultimately vague.

But regarding your latter point, doesn't that mean that they are set apart from Chosen Children around the globe? But by this point in time, aren't the international teams up to speed on how things work in the Digital World? They obviously didn't get their partners after the final battle in 02, but at some point during the battle with Diaboramon over the internet. So, it's been quite a few years that other Chosen Children would be brought up to speed. So, I think it proves that they were a unique class of digidestined.

I was more asking about what made the 02 partners seem more independent.
As in the two I cited? Hawkmon and Wormmon?

I found that Hawkmon actively engaged with Yolei. He challenged her as a partner digimon and didn't merely follow orders. From what I recall, they were almost always arguing with one another. Wormmon during the Digimon Emperor era did "follow orders", but to be fair, we never really learned much about Wormmon as a partner when he and Ken first met. Wormmon generally seemed to serve more of an advisory role, even if Ken ignored him. Would I say he was the best partner digimon, no? Namely, in that, he didn't do what Gomamon did. He should have walked away from Ken. Still, it doesn't address why Ken didn't force Wormmon to assume the form of Stingmon if he had previously assumed that form in the past?

But this actually brings me to Tapirmon... During the reboot somehow he managed to make his way back to Maki, but he was as apprehensive as Biyomon was with Sora. And yet, we never learned how his data was somehow recovered and reconfigured for someone well past their "digi-potential"?


Can we really say that the Adventure kids "achieved Ultimate on their own"? It was thanks to a random prophecy Gennai found, not through any breakthrough of theirs.
The "prophecy" merely alluded to what they must do to overcome those obstacles, it didn't whisk them up in the air and obligate them to become Mega to do what needed to be done. It merely stated that they needed to overcome certain things within themselves for their digimon to achieve their fullest potential.

Edited to add: RE: Prophecies:

I don't know that I would necessarily call them "prophetic". They seemed more like sagely proverbs. Sort of like saying something like this:

"To become master of light, he must first master the darkness within. Only then will he experience peace."

It's not exactly "prophetic", it's just words of wisdom.

If they wanted to do something with the prophecies, they should have sought out their source. That might have even made Kizuna more interesting.
 
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TMS

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I honestly don't think it was a wise decision to have made the Four Sovereigns the former partners of the previous Chosen Children, or if they did, not the way it was handled in Tri. Nothing in 02 ever hinted at that being the case. It was a last-minute decision that didn't really add to the story.
Hardly last-minute, since it was mentioned in the novel released like a year after 02. But you're right enough that they were only supposed to be one of the original series' many vague background details, and not something Toei expected us to try and make sense of.

But regarding your latter point, doesn't that mean that they are set apart from Chosen Children around the globe? But by this point in time, aren't the international teams up to speed on how things work in the Digital World? They obviously didn't get their partners after the final battle in 02, but at some point during the battle with Diaboramon over the internet. So, it's been quite a few years that other Chosen Children would be brought up to speed. So, I think it proves that they were a unique class of digidestined.
Just having a Digimon partner doesn't really count for experience, though. They had no enemies to battle, and so their Digimon had no cause to evolve or become stronger.

I found that Hawkmon actively engaged with Yolei. He challenged her as a partner digimon and didn't merely follow orders. From what I recall, they were almost always arguing with one another. Wormmon during the Digimon Emperor era did "follow orders", but to be fair, we never really learned much about Wormmon as a partner when he and Ken first met. Wormmon generally seemed to serve more of an advisory role, even if Ken ignored him. Would I say he was the best partner digimon, no? Namely, in that, he didn't do what Gomamon did. He should have walked away from Ken. Still, it doesn't address why Ken didn't force Wormmon to assume the form of Stingmon if he had previously assumed that form in the past?
Well, we don't know for sure that Wormmon had evolved in the past. It happened in the game, but I know you tend to disregard the games' events anyway, and we only ever see Wormmon in Ken's flashbacks. Even if Wormmon had previously evolved to Stingmon, the Dark Seed might have erased that along with most of Ken's other memories.

I guess I kind of see what you mean about Hawkmon, but there were disagreements between partners in the first series as well. Tentomon often tried to prod Koshiro when he was being antisocial, and Patamon and Takeru had their brief falling out in episode 33.

But this actually brings me to Tapirmon... During the reboot somehow he managed to make his way back to Maki, but he was as apprehensive as Biyomon was with Sora. And yet, we never learned how his data was somehow recovered and reconfigured for someone well past their "digi-potential"?
We both know the actual answer to that, but if you wanted an in-universe explanation you could handwave it as the reboot not distinguishing between Digimon that would and would not have been theoretically separated from their partners.

The "prophecy" merely alluded to what they must do to overcome those obstacles, it didn't whisk them up in the air and obligate them to become Mega to do what needed to be done. It merely stated that they needed to overcome certain things within themselves for their digimon to achieve their fullest potential.

Edited to add: RE: Prophecies:

I don't know that I would necessarily call them "prophetic". They seemed more like sagely proverbs. Sort of like saying something like this:

"To become master of light, he must first master the darkness within. Only then will he experience peace."

It's not exactly "prophetic", it's just words of wisdom.

If they wanted to do something with the prophecies, they should have sought out their source. That might have even made Kizuna more interesting.
They're definitely prophecies. There was the whole thing predicting VenomVamdemon's appearance, for example. It's one of the reasons Adventure's plot didn't make sense, since there's no ready explanation for how such prophecies could have been made. What would allow beings born from computer data to predict the future? If it referred solely to stuff that happened in the Digital World, it might have been slightly more understandable.

Going back to my original point, the Chosen Children went through the motions of what the prophecy said, but I don't see any reason to assume that the evolutions resulted from any innate power of theirs (that is to say, a power others wouldn't possess).
 

TheMatrix

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They're definitely prophecies. There was the whole thing predicting VenomVamdemon's appearance, for example. It's one of the reasons Adventure's plot didn't make sense, since there's no ready explanation for how such prophecies could have been made. What would allow beings born from computer data to predict the future? If it referred solely to stuff that happened in the Digital World, it might have been slightly more understandable.

Going back to my original point, the Chosen Children went through the motions of what the prophecy said, but I don't see any reason to assume that the evolutions resulted from any innate power of theirs (that is to say, a power others wouldn't possess).
Really you are going to complain about the Digimon having prophecies? How about the fact that Digital data is able to create edible food and water for flesh and blood human beings? Yeah, I know that Tamers kinda addresses this by explaining that the data bounds with protein(and even that does not really explain how data can be made fully flesh) but even then we are talking about Adventure here. My point is that some ambiguity is allowed when it comes the way things are able to operate.
 
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Yamato-san

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It’s really freaking weird given that the core thing about Digimon is that they grow through massive, incongruous changes as they grow. Far more than humans. And Tailmon herself went through a series of drastic personality growth and changes but then just froze when she met Hikari.
Their bodies change during instant evolution, but their minds do not. Tailmon's lack of growth after meeting Hikari could easily be attributed to the fact that her time as a partner Digimon was very brief compared to the many years she lived and evolved alone in the Digital World.
Many years? Was she really alone for that long? I know time passed differently within the Digital World prior to Apocalymon's defeat, but it's also worth keeping in mind that by the time Taichi and the others came to the Digital World, their Digimon were still in BabyII forms. When Tailmon was a Nyaromon, she supposedly wandered alone, and it's implied that she was a Plotmon by the time she became Vamdemon's minion. One could argue that Tailmon's growth was rapid because of the dangerous situations she was constantly exposed to, but the other BabyII Digimon's conditions on File Island weren't exactly peaceful either, as we immediately saw with Kuwagamon.

I found that Hawkmon actively engaged with Yolei. He challenged her as a partner digimon and didn't merely follow orders. From what I recall, they were almost always arguing with one another. Wormmon during the Digimon Emperor era did "follow orders", but to be fair, we never really learned much about Wormmon as a partner when he and Ken first met. Wormmon generally seemed to serve more of an advisory role, even if Ken ignored him. Would I say he was the best partner digimon, no? Namely, in that, he didn't do what Gomamon did. He should have walked away from Ken. Still, it doesn't address why Ken didn't force Wormmon to assume the form of Stingmon if he had previously assumed that form in the past?
Well, we don't know for sure that Wormmon had evolved in the past. It happened in the game, but I know you tend to disregard the games' events anyway, and we only ever see Wormmon in Ken's flashbacks. Even if Wormmon had previously evolved to Stingmon, the Dark Seed might have erased that along with most of Ken's other memories.
Isn't it implied that a Jogress into Paildramon happening is canon to the story of Tag Tamers? And even if it wasn't, how else could Ryou and Ken have taken out friggin' Millenniumon (which is very much canon to 02)? Though you do bring up a good point about the Dark Seed, which makes all the more sense when you consider it was intended to bring out Ken's negative emotions, so attempting to sever the existing bond with his Digimon would hardly be unprecedented.

The "prophecy" merely alluded to what they must do to overcome those obstacles, it didn't whisk them up in the air and obligate them to become Mega to do what needed to be done. It merely stated that they needed to overcome certain things within themselves for their digimon to achieve their fullest potential.

Edited to add: RE: Prophecies:

I don't know that I would necessarily call them "prophetic". They seemed more like sagely proverbs. Sort of like saying something like this:

"To become master of light, he must first master the darkness within. Only then will he experience peace."

It's not exactly "prophetic", it's just words of wisdom.

If they wanted to do something with the prophecies, they should have sought out their source. That might have even made Kizuna more interesting.
They're definitely prophecies. There was the whole thing predicting VenomVamdemon's appearance, for example. It's one of the reasons Adventure's plot didn't make sense, since there's no ready explanation for how such prophecies could have been made. What would allow beings born from computer data to predict the future? If it referred solely to stuff that happened in the Digital World, it might have been slightly more understandable.
They probably aren't "prophecies" so much as ultra-advanced computer simulations. But if that is the case, I guess it opens a whole other can of worms concerning a lot of shit Homeostasis apparently never accounted for.
 
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