Unpopular opinions and rants about the Digimon franchize.

[TMS]

Regarding Biyomon, that actually emphasizes my point. She was created to be Sora's partner and so on and so forth.

It wasn't a random choice, but a purposeful one. The same with the 02 Team being partnered with Ancient Species of Digimon capable of Armor Evolution.

Does it emphasize your point? I thought that you brought Piyomon up as an example of why they should have told us why that specific Piyomon (or whatever partner Digimon) was selected. I was pointing out that that was only an issue with the 02 kids' partners, and we had our explanation for why they were chosen (with the exception of Wormmon, who may have been either selected or created).

I know it's a Shonen anime, but in universe that explanation doesn't work. The characters aren't aware of us as an audience purchasing merchandise. As such, the in universe explanation has to serve a purpose in so far as world building is concerned.

I mean, reality is always what dictates what happens in the series, whether it makes sense in-universe or not. The real problem with Adventure is its slipshod writing.

Homeostatis elected this group of Chosen Children to be distinct from all other Chosen Children. A group apart from all others.

That's why I brought up the fact that we don't know what is required to create a Crest. Crests may not have been created for other children because that wasn't possible. And I do think that without the physical Crests the Chosen Children would not have been able to unlock their potential in the first place. If they could, why bother to make the Crests at all?

As to Ken, that's an interesting point, which is why I keep beating the dead horse that is Ken and D3/Kizuna Digivice. Not to discuss that further, but it somewhat reminds me of what they did with Super Sentai in the dub. Rita possessing a power coin which she wields in creating the Green Ranger. Perhaps something similar happens with Ken. He was always meant to be called, but his Crest was stolen by those who inhabited the Dark Ocean. I don't have a decent headcanon for it, but this is why it bothers me that Ken having a Crest gets overlooked so quickly. Oh yeah, he just so happens to have a Crest...let's just ignore it, because we're never going back to it. Ken deserved more as did we the audience.

Just to be clear, your opinion is that Ken's Crest should have been dealt with more thoroughly, and that's within the scope of this thread (though I'm not sure if it qualifies as an unpopular opinion); my only issue as a staff member is when you start writing fan fiction around it. We have other threads for that.

 

[Muur]

"Why bother to make crests at all "

To brainwash IRL kids into buying crest themed merchandise
Not everything has to have in universe reasoning. Crests, new digivices every season, thing like that are marketing based.

 

[JR9386]

That's why I brought up the fact that we don't know what is required to create a Crest. Crests may not have been created for other children because that wasn't possible. And I do think that without the physical Crests the Chosen Children would not have been able to unlock their potential in the first place. If they could, why bother to make the Crests at all?

Not to get fan-ficky, but I think the rationale for the physical Crests may have been a means to train them to channel that potential within themselves. A physical form of their own interior disposition. Tai had to learn to be brave in order to be a good leader and so on and so forth. Just my take on why they needed to create physical crests.

The issue is as you cited earlier, how does Ken manage a physical Crest when technically that technology was lost. But then we run into the issue with Maki and Daigo's crew. For whatever reason Homeostasis didn't see fit to provide them with Crests.

Just to be clear, your opinion is that Ken's Crest should have been dealt with more thoroughly, and that's within the scope of this thread.

Yes. Very much so! :-D

It's one of my biggest gripes with 02, after Armor evolution not being utilized to its full potential IMO.

1) Where did his physical Crest come from?

2) Why does he still possess a physical Crest?

3) Why didn't it just dissipate after Wormmon died?

Not that answers to those questions should be addressed in this thread, but it's what grates on me about Ken as written by the writers. Basically, all the dropped plots of 02 frustrate me (Ken's Crest, Kari's Dark Ocean, etc.). Was there a budgeting issue?

Which brings us back to what you stated here:

The real problem with Adventure is its slipshod writing.

THIS!

 

[Muur]

Why didn't it just dissipate after Wormmon died?

I mean, TK's crest didn't dissipate after Patamon died against Devimon

 

[JR9386]

Why didn't it just dissipate after Wormmon died?

I mean, TK's crest didn't dissipate after Patamon died against Devimon

I don't recall TK having a Crest that early on in Adventure.

My point was that, the Crest of Kindness as featured in 02, is an anomaly. It exists when it shouldn't, because a) the technology shouldn't exist anymore, b) Ken never activates it, c) we have no idea who bestowed it upon him, and finally, it wasn't necessary to restore balance to the Digital World.

I suppose what I'm getting at builds more on that last point. At some point it should have gone the way of the other physical Crests and been released into the Digital World. I speculate that I chose Wormmon's death being the trigger, as the Crest was sentient enough to fashion the Golden Digimental (Doesn't that indicate that the physical Crests fashioned their Digimental successors, or at most imbued dormant digimentals with their power?).

 

[Muur]

Why didn't it just dissipate after Wormmon died?

I mean, TK's crest didn't dissipate after Patamon died against Devimon

I don't recall TK having a Crest that early on in Adventure.

My point was that, the Crest of Kindness as featured in 02, is an anomaly. It exists when it shouldn't, because a) the technology shouldn't exist anymore, b) Ken never activates it, c) we have no idea who bestowed it upon him, and finally, it wasn't necessary to restore balance to the Digital World.

I suppose what I'm getting at builds more on that last point. At some point it should have gone the way of the other physical Crests and been released into the Digital World. I speculate that I chose Wormmon's death being the trigger, as the Crest was sentient enough to fashion the Golden Digimental (Doesn't that indicate that the physical Crests fashioned their Digimental successors, or at most imbued dormant digimentals with their power?).

the crests were made before they got their digimon. piedmon stole the tags and crests, but when gennai escaped he dropped salamons digiegg or whatever. wormmon dying killing the crest would do the same thing with patamon.

> the technology shouldn't exist anymore

why? homeostatis and the holy beasts still exist, they can make as many as they want

> we have no idea who bestowed it upon him

the same guys I mentioned above prob? they make them. homeostatis is who chooses digidestiend in the first place

ken was a digidestined before davis and his friends, but after tai and his friends. if you count tai/friends as 1.0 and davis/friends as 2.0, ken and ryo were 1.5. obviously crests were still in effect at the timing of 1.5, but retired by the time of 2.0.

 

[Theigno]

That might just be a cultural thing: the idea that emotions and sympathetic bonds can literally give you power. You find it hard to understand because you're likely a Western.

I don't believe that anyone finds that hard to understand, it's just hard to like because it's a terribly lame cliche often used to enable all sorts of lazy writing, when it's just a matter of "emotions can just magically solve your problems". In order to not have it potentially break the setting there need to be further mechanics to define and constrain how those forces work, so that the overall story remains fair to the audience.

I suppose what I'm getting at builds more on that last point. At some point it should have gone the way of the other physical Crests and been released into the Digital World. I speculate that I chose Wormmon's death being the trigger, as the Crest was sentient enough to fashion the Golden Digimental (Doesn't that indicate that the physical Crests fashioned their Digimental successors, or at most imbued dormant digimentals with their power?).

I don't think the crests themselves are linked to the stability of the digital world. They were used to restore the powers that kept the world in balance, but those "powers" were not the crests but simply the Holy Beasts that had been sealed and Koushiro only referred to them as "powers" because he did not know that they were Digimon at the time.
So my point is... the Holy Beasts simply needed energy to be freed and the power of the crests just happened to be what was available at the time. Possibly another kind of "good" energy like the emotional energy from lots of people like shown in movie 2 and 4 could have done the job too, but the crests were the most convenient way.

> the technology shouldn't exist anymore

why? homeostatis and the holy beasts still exist, they can make as many as they want

That's questionable. After all the laboratory and all their equipment was destroyed by Piemon, and so were most of the Agents until Gennai started replicating at some later point.
And there are clearly limits to what the homeostasis can do on their own, for example they could not manufacture another digital gate and were still dependent on the one left behind in the lab's remnants (plus the holy beasts were still sealed at that point).

 

[Muur]

They made the equipment once, no reason they can't make it again

 

[PCN24454]

That might just be a cultural thing: the idea that emotions and sympathetic bonds can literally give you power. You find it hard to understand because you're likely a Western.

I don't believe that anyone finds that hard to understand, it's just hard to like because it's a terribly lame cliche often used to enable all sorts of lazy writing, when it's just a matter of "emotions can just magically solve your problems". In order to not have it potentially break the setting there need to be further mechanics to define and constrain how those forces work, so that the overall story remains fair to the audience.

I think it kinda goes to my point that you think these things can be put into concrete numbers like a video game.

 

[JR9386]

That might just be a cultural thing: the idea that emotions and sympathetic bonds can literally give you power. You find it hard to understand because you're likely a Western.

I don't believe that anyone finds that hard to understand, it's just hard to like because it's a terribly lame cliche often used to enable all sorts of lazy writing, when it's just a matter of "emotions can just magically solve your problems". In order to not have it potentially break the setting there need to be further mechanics to define and constrain how those forces work, so that the overall story remains fair to the audience.

I think it kinda goes to my point that you think these things can be put into concrete numbers like a video game.

I don't think that's what he's saying.

Basically, higher form evolution can't be based solely on power boosts from the Virtues on a whim.

If that's the case, we'd see a lot more SkullGreymon and alternate evolutions for the core cast each and every time something goes wrong, or doesn't go as planned (ie. Unable to level up.).

With the absence of the physical Crests, and the final battle against Armagedomon revealing that the power always subsisted in them, we get yet another layer to how evolution works. The Chosen Children had effectively become habituated in their corresponding virtues and thus no longer needed the physical Crests as a channel.

The problem is that the Crests in and of themselves were deemed absolutely necessary until they weren't. As such, the Virtues can't be said to subsist in them by nature, but rather by grace. Who then could be said to wield those Virtues by their very nature?

Personally, I hold that these are what the Bond Forms had the potential to be, but didn't address (Unpopular opinion.). I mentioned it previously, but I hold that those are the true partner forms. It is a shonen series, so it makes sense. But that said, the one problem I have with the other forms beyond Champion becomes why all the sidestepping of that form given all the emphasis on the Virtues/Crests? Out of universe, it's because they weren't conceived of then, but in universe? This is what makes Sora's plot so confusing.

 

[Theigno]

I think it kinda goes to my point that you think these things can be put into concrete numbers like a video game.

Oh I understand the concept, but I am talking in terms of what makes for a good narrative. And any sufficiently powerful and ill-defined force makes it hard to generate actual tension in a conflict and action anime often depend on tension.
And of course accepting such a concept as simply ubiquitous for some arbitrary cultural reason does not solve the original question of why literally everyone else wouldn't be on the same level as the Adventure chosen. By the point of Kizuna there are lots of international chosen many of which have had their partners for around decade and yet we don't see 50 Omegamon, or even any non-Adventure Ultimates flying around.
So the facts of the setting itself do not agree that those emotional bonds are as universal as you try to make it seem, there seems to be some implied distinction which the series fails to explain.

They made the equipment once, no reason they can't make it again

As far as we know all Agents besides Gennai are dead, Gennai himself is a frail old man hiding in a lake, the Holy Beasts are sealed and the homeostasis can't manifest physically and the world in general was under the control of various forces of evil. That's plenty of reasons. If they were at full capacity there would have been little reason to not provide any of the international chosen with crests.

 

[JR9386]

I pulled this from another thread, when I was looking into @Theigno 's post above regarding the international Chosen Children.

Looking at this image, how does this even work?

Davis ventured into the Digital World and already possessed a D3? Not just Davis, but multiple non-02 Chosen Children with access to the Digital World?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but how does D-1 Tamers fit into Adventure? I haven't read it, so I'm being sincere in my question.

And of course accepting such a concept as simply ubiquitous for some arbitrary cultural reason does not solve the original question of why literally everyone else wouldn't be on the same level as the Adventure chosen. By the point of Kizuna there are lots of international chosen many of which have had their partners for around decade and yet we don't see 50 Omegamon, or even any non-Adventure Ultimates flying around.
So the facts of the setting itself do not agree that those emotional bonds are as universal as you try to make it seem, there seems to be some implied distinction which the series fails to explain.

This is something that I actually wish Kizuna didn't just explain away via vague storytelling. Menoa keeps insisting that the more they evolve their digimon, the more likely they are to untether the bond. But that said, when did we ever see Morphomon evolve?

What potential was she referring to?

If anything, the Bond forms negate everything she said, assuming they weren't just for show. They're precisely what make the Adventure Chosen 8 (9? 10?) unique.

I want a do over of Kizuna. It's great for nostalgia purposes and feels, but there are so many things about it that don't work.

 

[Muur]

I think it kinda goes to my point that you think these things can be put into concrete numbers like a video game.

Oh I understand the concept, but I am talking in terms of what makes for a good narrative. And any sufficiently powerful and ill-defined force makes it hard to generate actual tension in a conflict and action anime often depend on tension.
And of course accepting such a concept as simply ubiquitous for some arbitrary cultural reason does not solve the original question of why literally everyone else wouldn't be on the same level as the Adventure chosen. By the point of Kizuna there are lots of international chosen many of which have had their partners for around decade and yet we don't see 50 Omegamon, or even any non-Adventure Ultimates flying around.
So the facts of the setting itself do not agree that those emotional bonds are as universal as you try to make it seem, there seems to be some implied distinction which the series fails to explain.

They made the equipment once, no reason they can't make it again

As far as we know all Agents besides Gennai are dead, Gennai himself is a frail old man hiding in a lake, the Holy Beasts are sealed and the homeostasis can't manifest physically and the world in general was under the control of various forces of evil. That's plenty of reasons. If they were at full capacity there would have been little reason to not provide any of the international chosen with crests.

Gennai has hundreds of clones in 02. Including that evil one in Tri

 

[TMS]

Looking at this image, how does this even work?

It was eventually determined that that's from a fan doujin. It's not official. Daisuke wasn't involved with D-1 Tamers.

Gennai has hundreds of clones in 02. Including that evil one in Tri

You mean half a dozen? And of course, we don't know what the Mysterious Man's origins were.

About Menoa, she's crazy and trying to manipulate the Chosen Children in the movie, so anything she says is highly suspect. I remember reading a blog post that made a good case for the Chosen Children losing their Digimon because they stopped making them a major part of their lives.

 

[JR9386]

About Menoa, she's crazy and trying to manipulate the Chosen Children in the movie, so anything she says is highly suspect. I remember reading a blog post that made a good case for the Chosen Children losing their Digimon because they stopped making them a major part of their lives.

If Digimon REALLLY wanted to go there, they could have had Menoa killing other Chosen Children when she went completely unhinged. But in a way it fits with the plot. Perhaps she had hoped to collect enough innocent potential to restore her partnership with Morphomon.

Maybe that's too dark for Digimon...

But in keeping with the topic of the thread, I think Digimon held back a bit within later installments of Adventure. Tri and Kizuna were basically just more of the same. Big bads from the Digital World, and while Kizuna toyed with the idea, Menoa wasn't as unhinged as she could be.

Edited to add: Just saw a video where it was cited that there exists a connection between Gennai and Ryo. Not sure how true that is, but I would have been okay seeing that explored in relation to Dark Gennai.

 

[Muur]

Nothing's too dark for Digimon after they had an infermon selling people online sex dolls then killing them whilst using them and then selling their organs on the black market then we meet one of the people logged in who can't log out because they have no body to return to and also the other where a student forced his entire class to kill their teacher then jump off the roof one by one

 

[JR9386]

Nothing's too dark for Digimon after they had an infermon selling people online sex dolls then killing them whilst using them and then selling their organs on the black market then we meet one of the people logged in who can't log out because they have no body to return to and also the other where a student forced his entire class to kill their teacher then jump off the roof one by one

Let me rephrase that, it's too dark for Adventure.

I enjoy Digimon as much as the next person, but no way would I want it to become that sort of anime.

I just think that Adventure never goes beyond its potential as a series.

Morphomon (Mega) was a boring design. It didn't do anything. It just remained static. Nothing about the other stages said threatening. With so many unused digimon, they just opted for a movie specific tie-in?

Menoa offing people would have been too dark, because she would have effectively been killing off children. It's not just about orphan Digimon, but the actual consequences of dealing with someone offing children. Sacrificing them to a Demon Lord Digimon so she could regain her partner?

No, just no...

Unpopular opinion:

As much as I like Sora, I can't stand the trope she serves in the films. She's always available to assist in the battles, but there is no logical narrative reason for why she's never included in them. Kizuna just added insult to injury with how it handled her farewell with Biyomon.

 

[Unknown Neo]

Nothing's too dark for Digimon after they had an infermon selling people online sex dolls then killing them whilst using them and then selling their organs on the black market then we meet one of the people logged in who can't log out because they have no body to return to and also the other where a student forced his entire class to kill their teacher then jump off the roof one by one

...Question. Where did these come from? The two games on the Switch? If so, I'll have to get to those games soon.

 

[JR9386]

Nothing's too dark for Digimon after they had an infermon selling people online sex dolls then killing them whilst using them and then selling their organs on the black market then we meet one of the people logged in who can't log out because they have no body to return to and also the other where a student forced his entire class to kill their teacher then jump off the roof one by one

...Question. Where did these come from? The two games on the Switch? If so, I'll have to get to those games soon.

This is from CyberSleuth.

Honestly, this has been my concern with more humanoid Digimon partnerships. Eventually we'll get to the point where things will *go there*. I'm really hoping it's not Sistermon or Lilithmon.

I mean, it HAS been done before, android-human pairings. However, that usually brings up questions pertaining to the soul which Digimon doesn't have a good grasp of those themes IMO (Accidental unpopular opinion?). The closest we got to something like that was with Labramon in the Tamers film (Pokémon sorta went there when we learned the doctor who worked on Mewtwo cloned his daughter.). But nothing substantial in so far as the soul is concerned. This might actually be my gripe with Kizuna. Ignoring the 02 epilogue, Kizuna gives the impression that not only does the partnership end, but that the Digimon partner ceases to exist. The film didn't earn getting us to that point. Especially with everything we learned about Digimon being reborn etc., it gives the impression that they're practically immortal, or close to it, but slips the rug from beneath us. I could have seen the partnership changing as the partner got older, following the route of Narnia, with the partner Digimon retiring with their human partner's death (A sort of Digimon Afterlife?).

@Theigno, what are your thoughts on that particular point? Do you think Kizuna grappled with the subject of mortal vs. immortal souls well enough?

Speaking of which, I like what Frontier did with the Human and Beast divide, but it seems a missed opportunity to have not explored the lore of the angel and demon digimon. With all the allusions and lore of Fallen Angel digimon, you'd think they'd include something akin to the war that broke out in heaven in accord with the Judaeo-Christian Tradition. It seems silly to have Angemon have a type advantage against Devimon if there wasn't an actual fall.

 

[TheMatrix]

Nothing's too dark for Digimon after they had an infermon selling people online sex dolls then killing them whilst using them and then selling their organs on the black market then we meet one of the people logged in who can't log out because they have no body to return to and also the other where a student forced his entire class to kill their teacher then jump off the roof one by one

...Question. Where did these come from? The two games on the Switch? If so, I'll have to get to those games soon.

This is from CyberSleuth.

Honestly, this has been my concern with more humanoid Digimon partnerships. Eventually we'll get to the point where things will *go there*. I'm really hoping it's not Sistermon or Lilithmon.

I mean, it HAS been done before, android-human pairings. However, that usually brings up questions pertaining to the soul which Digimon doesn't have a good grasp of those themes IMO (Accidental unpopular opinion?). The closest we got to something like that was with Labramon in the Tamers film (Pokémon sorta went there when we learned the doctor who worked on Mewtwo cloned his daughter.). But nothing substantial in so far as the soul is concerned. This might actually be my gripe with Kizuna. Ignoring the 02 epilogue, Kizuna gives the impression that not only does the partnership end, but that the Digimon partner ceases to exist. The film didn't earn getting us to that point. Especially with everything we learned about Digimon being reborn etc., it gives the impression that they're practically immortal, or close to it, but slips the rug from beneath us. I could have seen the partnership changing as the partner got older, following the route of Narnia, with the partner Digimon retiring with their human partner's death (A sort of Digimon Afterlife?).

@Theigno, what are your thoughts on that particular point? Do you think Kizuna grappled with the subject of mortal vs. immortal souls well enough?

Speaking of which, I like what Frontier did with the Human and Beast divide, but it seems a missed opportunity to have not explored the lore of the angel and demon digimon. With all the allusions and lore of Fallen Angel digimon, you'd think they'd include something akin to the war that broke out in heaven in accord with the Judaeo-Christian Tradition. It seems silly to have Angemon have a type advantage against Devimon if there wasn't an actual fall.

In defense of Kizune Tai mentioned that he would see Agumon again. As for angels and demons the Digimons are made up of what people have put online any real deity before the creation of the Digital World does not influence it directly. As for Angemon having adventage over Devimon, that is debatable. Yes, Devimon made himself stronger through the black gears however Etemon made himself stronger via his dark network jet was able to be defeated by an Ultimate(or Perfect) level Digimon that did not use up his energy to the point of becoming an egg. Sure you could say that it is not comparable since Etemon did not die but keep in mind that aside from Angemon using pretty much all his energy to defeat Devimon he also took enery from the rest of the seven Digidestineds Digimons.

Also I don't think I have stated this before but since I am one a controversial opinion thread I might as well. I do not think that it is really a problem if a lower level Digimon can defeat a higher level Digimon. Trust me before there was the original animated series there was the Digimon World video game and as somebody who has played a bit of it I can tell you that being a higher level is far from guaranteeing your Digimon to win against a lower level Digimon.

Not saying that it should not have any effect at all but to qoute Piedmon from the dub ''Your two Megas are newly evolved how can you expect them to compete against an experienced and might I boast superior Digimon''.