Random Commentary on Evolutionary Relationships V.4

Sparrow Hawk

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Agnimon managed to defeat Cerberumon, a Perfect level.
And in the very next episode, Agnimon was defeated by an Adult-level Raremon. Animes don't really care about being consistent to a inter-media standard. Villains will be as strong/weak as the writers want them to be.

Duskmon being selected as Child was the most weirdest decision made for that. Agnimon in Next Order was Perfect level but it was still somewhat strange instead of Vitramon.
There's nothing too off about these. They evidently wanted a Darkness Spirit line for the X2, and there isn't a Darkness-equivalent to Flamon, so they went with the next lowest stage.
Why not Loweemon? Or why was Loweemon cut out? They needed to cut something about, if they were planning on including both corrupted and regular Spirits in a single line. Besides, the bit-sprite for Loweemon would probably be too similar to Raihimon's bit-sprite (especially the close-up faceshot), while Duskmon and Velgrmon have pretty unique silhouettes and designs.

As for Agnimon, probably for similar technical issues. They might not have had a Vritramon completely ready in time, and they didn't want to skip a stage, so they bumped Agnimon up. In fact, they didn't have KaiserGreymon ready in time either. The original Japanese Next Order had only Agnimon(Perfect) > Susanoomon(Ultimate), before they added KaiserGreymon(Ultimate) in the newer iterations and bumped Susanoomon up another level.
Then came Hacker's Memory, which added Vritramon to the line and bumped Agnimon down to Adult, and retroactively added the whole line to the newer iterations of the base Cyber Sleuth.
Yeah Frontier writers made it hard to understand Legendary Spirits' level. But all I know it may be very tactical fights although it's still confusing.

Ready in time? It seemed when it comes to English version, they had time to add DLC to install while the japanese versions didn't have it still but well then they did receive it much later... I guess I shouldn't say that much since I'm kinda forgetful. Still it bothered me the models of Hacker's Memory and Next Order for Agnimon's line felt... Somewhat different due to the animation.

Not bad for choosing JewelBeemon due to its shiny blurring of rainbow shell. But still it is standing out because there is.... A man in that evo line.
 

Muur

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Agnimon managed to defeat Cerberumon, a Perfect level.
And in the very next episode, Agnimon was defeated by an Adult-level Raremon. Animes don't really care about being consistent to a inter-media standard. Villains will be as strong/weak as the writers want them to be.

Duskmon being selected as Child was the most weirdest decision made for that. Agnimon in Next Order was Perfect level but it was still somewhat strange instead of Vitramon.
There's nothing too off about these. They evidently wanted a Darkness Spirit line for the X2, and there isn't a Darkness-equivalent to Flamon, so they went with the next lowest stage.
Why not Loweemon? Or why was Loweemon cut out? They needed to cut something about, if they were planning on including both corrupted and regular Spirits in a single line. Besides, the bit-sprite for Loweemon would probably be too similar to Raihimon's bit-sprite (especially the close-up faceshot), while Duskmon and Velgrmon have pretty unique silhouettes and designs.

As for Agnimon, probably for similar technical issues. They might not have had a Vritramon completely ready in time, and they didn't want to skip a stage, so they bumped Agnimon up. In fact, they didn't have KaiserGreymon ready in time either. The original Japanese Next Order had only Agnimon(Perfect) > Susanoomon(Ultimate), before they added KaiserGreymon(Ultimate) in the newer iterations and bumped Susanoomon up another level.
Then came Hacker's Memory, which added Vritramon to the line and bumped Agnimon down to Adult, and retroactively added the whole line to the newer iterations of the base Cyber Sleuth.
Yeah Frontier writers made it hard to understand Legendary Spirits' level. But all I know it may be very tactical fights although it's still confusing.

Ready in time? It seemed when it comes to English version, they had time to add DLC to install while the japanese versions didn't have it still but well then they did receive it much later... I guess I shouldn't say that much since I'm kinda forgetful. Still it bothered me the models of Hacker's Memory and Next Order for Agnimon's line felt... Somewhat different due to the animation.
Animations aren't the same thing as models.

theyre the same models.

some of the animation were changed between DWNO and HM. For example in Next Order Crimson Mode always has his sword out, so when he uses his attack he despawns the sword and then instantly re-spawns it, which looks really stupid. This was fixed for HM and he doesn't have his sword out at all times. A lot of the DWNO Digimon got their animations changed to be better quality than what was used in DWNO since they were pretty meh there. I recall Shoutmon's Fiery Fastball was redone as well. Clearly Habu didn't like the work of the DWNO staff.
 

IamTheSovereign

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I would also like to point out, that Agunimon wasn't actually "defeated" by Raremon; he just sort of.....turned back into Takuya, as an implication that he did not yet have full control over his newly-found Spirit.

Also this:

I like the transition from scarf to cape to ribbon; I feel like it works, thematically. Just wish Miss Ciel more matched the color schemes of Cutemon...
 

Nightwing

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If Lucemon and Keramon X are as powerful as they are at the Child level, I don't think we need to take the levels as such a clear indication of power. Agunimon can be an Adult with power comparable to a Perfect, while Vritramon is a Perfect with power of a Perfect.

The Duskmon X2 line is interesting in the sense that you can take the corrupted forms as weaker level-wise because they're less "developed". In Digimon terms, Duskmon is a Child because it's corrupted, but KaiserLowemon is a Perfect because it's one of the true forms. So when it comes to power, they could be equal (they might not be gameplay-wise, but lore-wise they could be), but they're not when it comes to level.
 
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Kotekuma

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If Lucemon and Keramon X are as powerful as they are at the Child level, I don't think we need to take the levels as such a clear indication of power.
That's a good point but it's still totally valid to ask for consistency- and to find any perceivable logic where the consistency doesn't exist. I think it's fair to say that Lucemon and Keramon X are outliers to the standard and aptly so. But it doesn't make as much sense for Duskmon to be an exception.

And if levels, aren't a strict indication of power what do levels actually define? It should define evolutionary growth. In which case, Duskmon shouldn't be labeled as a child.


Moprhmon makes such a great child for Hudiemon, i just wish there was something good to fit between Hudiemon and Lilithmon X

I´ll just add this to the list of lines that miss a digimon or two >_>
right next to Penmon>Daipenmon, Tortomon>Eldoradimon and Ogremon>Titamon
(Add Tapirmon>Mammon btw.)
I quite love Morphomon to Hudiemon. I headcanon Hudiemon as Morphomon's true evolution and vice versa.
As for the link to Lillitmon, imo Fairymon doesn't work because it doesn't have any evilness to it. I say Arukenimon is better but still imperfect. If you main thing are the wings it fails. But it does link the insect traits with evil traits while keeping the form of a woman.

 
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Deep Saver

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Not bad for choosing JewelBeemon due to its shiny blurring of rainbow shell. But still it is standing out because there is.... A man in that evo line.
I personally don't think Jewelbeemon looks particularly masculine or feminine, but that's just me.
 

LotusRose

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Not bad for choosing JewelBeemon due to its shiny blurring of rainbow shell. But still it is standing out because there is.... A man in that evo line.
I personally don't think Jewelbeemon looks particularly masculine or feminine, but that's just me.
Yeah, if not for the association with Stingmon, I don't think you'd necessarily look at JewelBeemon and think it's especially masculine looking; I could easily imagine a JewelBeemon being more feminine. Plus there have always been evolutions like Piyomon >> Garudamon, where femininity/masculinity isn't really much of an issue.
 

YongYoKyo

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Yeah, if not for the association with Stingmon, I don't think you'd necessarily look at JewelBeemon and think it's especially masculine looking; I could easily imagine a JewelBeemon being more feminine. Plus there have always been evolutions like Piyomon >> Garudamon, where femininity/masculinity isn't really much of an issue.
Jewelbeemon isn't even particularly associated with Stingmon either. It's just a popular fan-line, especially for fans that are against the "Jogress" evolution line of Dinobeemon>GranKuwagamon. Outside of a couple TCG cards, Stingmon>JewelBeemon is only really used by third-party Korean games.

That said, I also think Jewelbeemon is more feminine, from a Digimon perspective. Unlike Stingmon, who is a humanoid insect; Jewelbeemon is a human in insectoid armor, like Hudiemon. Jewelbeemon is also more thin and lithe than Stingmon, especially the limbs.
 

Nightwing

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If Lucemon and Keramon X are as powerful as they are at the Child level, I don't think we need to take the levels as such a clear indication of power.
That's a good point but it's still totally valid to ask for consistency- and to find any perceivable logic where the consistency doesn't exist. I think it's fair to say that Lucemon and Keramon X are outliers to the standard and aptly so. But it doesn't make as much sense for Duskmon to be an exception.

And if levels, aren't a strict indication of power what do levels actually define? It should define evolutionary growth. In which case, Duskmon shouldn't be labeled as a child.
That's exactly what I'm arguing, Duskmon is a "Child" because it's the corrupted form. I think levels should define growth in general and not just evolutionary growth since that would prevent something like Slide Evolution from being actual Evolution. For example, Agumon evolving to Agumon Bond of Courage is more spiritual growth than anything else imo, a reflection of its partner's growth in the movie. It's also difficult to really define Patamon to Angemon as "evolutionary" growth if you followed the actual definition of evolution, but that's a different discussion I think lol.

I think the Duskmon line is pretty simple to follow from corrupted Human Spirit, to corrupted Beast Spirit, to the true Beast Spirit form, then the true fused form, and then the original form of the Warrior of Darkness.
 

Lord Bearmon

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Moprhmon makes such a great child for Hudiemon, i just wish there was something good to fit between Hudiemon and Lilithmon X



i´ll just add this to the list of lines that miss a digimon or two >_>
right next to Penmon>Daipenmon, Tortomon>Eldoradimon and Ogremon>Titamon
 

YongYoKyo

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Eosmon (Perfect) lacks the organic wings aspect that the others are trying to preserve.

Also, at that point, you might as well just use the entire Eosmon line if you're using both Morphomon and Eosmon (Perfect).
 

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If Lucemon and Keramon X are as powerful as they are at the Child level, I don't think we need to take the levels as such a clear indication of power.
That's a good point but it's still totally valid to ask for consistency- and to find any perceivable logic where the consistency doesn't exist. I think it's fair to say that Lucemon and Keramon X are outliers to the standard and aptly so. But it doesn't make as much sense for Duskmon to be an exception.

And if levels, aren't a strict indication of power what do levels actually define? It should define evolutionary growth. In which case, Duskmon shouldn't be labeled as a child.
That's exactly what I'm arguing, Duskmon is a "Child" because it's the corrupted form. I think levels should define growth in general and not just evolutionary growth since that would prevent something like Slide Evolution from being actual Evolution. For example, Agumon evolving to Agumon Bond of Courage is more spiritual growth than anything else imo, a reflection of its partner's growth in the movie. It's also difficult to really define Patamon to Angemon as "evolutionary" growth if you followed the actual definition of evolution, but that's a different discussion I think lol.
I feel like the issue is trying to treat Digivolution as being 1:1 with Evolution in Pokemon and specifically the Pokemon games. In the Pokemon games, a higher stage Pokemon is almost always stronger than a lower stage one if for no reason than stats (e.g. Charizard can wipe the floor with Squirtle despite an elemental disadvantage since Squirtle statistically lower than Charizard). Obviously this does not apply to the anime since battling in the anime hinges on trainer skill as much if not more so than raw Pokemon stats as explained by Suede in his review of episode nine of season one, The School Of Hard Knocks.

Digivolution however has always been being analogous to life stages in Tamagotchi to the point the first several levels are named Baby, Child and Adult. And while this naming convention isn't applied to Perfect or Ultimate, they are still technically meant to be life stages and it can be argued that they are life stages that Digimon aspire to reach. To put it simply: Digimon want to live as long as physically possible.

The idea of Levels as Life Stages can also be used to explain some of the shenanigans regarding levels such as there being two levels of Whamon: The Perfect level Whamon living off Folder Continent's coast achieved a higher stage of growth/development as a species than their Adult level cousins living in File Island's waters.

Hell, I'd actually go one step farther by renaming "Fresh/Baby I" to "Infant" and "In-Training/Baby II" to "Toddler" to reflect what the stages are meant to be.
 

Muur

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If Lucemon and Keramon X are as powerful as they are at the Child level, I don't think we need to take the levels as such a clear indication of power.
That's a good point but it's still totally valid to ask for consistency- and to find any perceivable logic where the consistency doesn't exist. I think it's fair to say that Lucemon and Keramon X are outliers to the standard and aptly so. But it doesn't make as much sense for Duskmon to be an exception.

And if levels, aren't a strict indication of power what do levels actually define? It should define evolutionary growth. In which case, Duskmon shouldn't be labeled as a child.
That's exactly what I'm arguing, Duskmon is a "Child" because it's the corrupted form. I think levels should define growth in general and not just evolutionary growth since that would prevent something like Slide Evolution from being actual Evolution. For example, Agumon evolving to Agumon Bond of Courage is more spiritual growth than anything else imo, a reflection of its partner's growth in the movie. It's also difficult to really define Patamon to Angemon as "evolutionary" growth if you followed the actual definition of evolution, but that's a different discussion I think lol.
I feel like the issue is trying to treat Digivolution as being 1:1 with Evolution in Pokemon and specifically the Pokemon games. In the Pokemon games, a higher stage Pokemon is almost always stronger than a lower stage one if for no reason than stats (e.g. Charizard can wipe the floor with Squirtle despite an elemental disadvantage since Squirtle statistically lower than Charizard). Obviously this does not apply to the anime since battling in the anime hinges on trainer skill as much if not more so than raw Pokemon stats as explained by Suede in his review of episode nine of season one, The School Of Hard Knocks.

Digivolution however has always been being analogous to life stages in Tamagotchi to the point the first several levels are named Baby, Child and Adult. And while this naming convention isn't applied to Perfect or Ultimate, they are still technically meant to be life stages and it can be argued that they are life stages that Digimon aspire to reach. To put it simply: Digimon want to live as long as physically possible.

The idea of Levels as Life Stages can also be used to explain some of the shenanigans regarding levels such as there being two levels of Whamon: The Perfect level Whamon living off Folder Continent's coast achieved a higher stage of growth/development as a species than their Adult level cousins living in File Island's waters.

Hell, I'd actually go one step farther by renaming "Fresh/Baby I" to "Infant" and "In-Training/Baby II" to "Toddler" to reflect what the stages are meant to be.
The western version of the ver 20 vpet actually did localise the baby stages as "infant".

 

Chimera-gui

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I'm aware though the localization still just tacked on the numeral II to the previous level name for the second level instead of using a unique term like toddler as I had suggested.

My reason for toddler as a term is because while you do get hopping heads, the majority of them have functional limbs.
 
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SparkGold

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honestly, I have much more issue with "Ultimate" in Japan and "Ultimate" in English referring to different stages. It makes things needlessly confusing. The Baby and Baby 2 thing people learn pretty fast
 

Muur

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honestly, I have much more issue with "Ultimate" in Japan and "Ultimate" in English referring to different stages. It makes things needlessly confusing. The Baby and Baby 2 thing people learn pretty fast
Well the dub was using it before it existed in japan, so that was japans fault.

and you know when it comes to the dub theyre consistent in Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, Mega, and Ultra but they can't seem to make their mind up on the baby level names.

we've had:

Fresh and In-Training

Baby and In-Training

In-Training I/II

Training I/II

In-Training/In Training I (this is the stupidest one)

and Infancy I and Infancy II

they at least want to be consistent with using numbers I guess.
 
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Muur

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Evil Grademon works better for Alphamon with the colours than the original tbh. I'm surprised they haven't used it again. The Bandai Asia reference book included it and the JP name was what you listed so it's technically its own species.

Heck maybe they can use evil Grademon -> apollomon whispered as a branch. That'd be an interesting way to use them.

Also your line works well.
 

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I feel like the issue is trying to treat Digivolution as being 1:1 with Evolution in Pokemon and specifically the Pokemon games.
There is no issue with treating something like it literally is (strength wise; branching is another topic entirely). Digimon evolve from weaker stages into stronger stages, that's the main point of it.

And no, a few outliers to the general strength of a level like Lucemon, Hackmon and Arkadimon do not change that, especially since in context of to their own lines they do not break the pattern at all; Lucemon and Arkadimon's higher stages are clearly more powerful than their previous ones. It's simply cherry picking single instances that are very clearly meant to be exceptions lore wise anyway, it's not going to overturn common sense any time soon.

while this naming convention isn't applied to Perfect or Ultimate, they are still technically meant to be life stages and it can be argued that they are life stages that Digimon aspire to reach. To put it simply: Digimon want to live as long as physically possible.
They can also be argued to be levels strength that Digimon want to reach.

The idea of Levels as Life Stages can also be used to explain some of the shenanigans regarding levels such as there being two levels of Whamon: The Perfect level Whamon living off Folder Continent's coast achieved a higher stage of growth/development as a species than their Adult level cousins living in File Island's waters.
The idea doesn't explain anything better than the regular conception of levels. The Perfect Whamon are perfect level whamon because they evolved from Adult Level Digimon and the Adult level Whamon is adult level because it evolved from child level Digimon. Plus the perfect one is stronger.

My reason for toddler as a term is because while you do get hopping heads, the majority of them have functional limbs.
It would be a bizarre and unfitting term, since "toddler" very specifically refers to human children, when most Digimon at this stage are not humanoid at all.

honestly, I have much more issue with "Ultimate" in Japan and "Ultimate" in English referring to different stages. It makes things needlessly confusing. The Baby and Baby 2 thing people learn pretty fast
Well the dub was using it before it existed in japan, so that was japans fault.
It's not really their fault that "Kyukyokutai" just happens to be translatable to some english term the dub was using.
 
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