Original V-Pet NEVER beats Pendulum?

Ry14

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Whenever I battle a V-pet original against a Pendulum, the v-pet loses 100% of the time. This is regardless of any other factors.

I brought up 2 original v-pets alongside 2 pendulums recently. I battled my version 2 v-pet every now and again against my 2.0 and 4.0 pendulums, and the Garurumon always lost (prior to that I had an Angemon on it as well that always got stomped). I chalked this up to perhaps the original v-pet training being less effective than the pendulum shaking training, akin to the way it is in the Digimon Unlimited app.

However, the Pendulums have been started over with the Garurumon still hanging around. It has been excessively trained every day for quite a while, battled and mostly won with my Version 1 V-pet (which has turned out to be mostly functioning as a punching bag/training object for my other devices), with no care mistakes or calls.

I battled the Garurumon with the fresh Biyomon on my 4.0 pendulum last night to get see how it goes, because I had yet to see a v-pet beat a pendulum. The Biyomon beat it, and the thing is, I hadn't even touched the thing since it hatched. No training. And, as I said, the Garurumon has been soundly trained and very well taken care of from it's conception. I was pretty surprised and beginning to wonder if a v-pet can even beat a pendulum.

Jump ahead to earlier today, the Biyomon is now Birdramon, and I decide to try another battle between the two. Birdramon wins (I didn't even shake the thing), Garurumon dies, from the battle, yes dies, at age 11 which kinda pissed me off because I kind of liked the guy.

So, all that being said, does anyone actually know the mechanics behind these? Is it even possible for an original V-Pet to beat anything other than an original V-pet? Has anyone's V-pet beaten a Pendulum or anything else before?


TL;DR: Pendulum 4.0 Biyomon with literally no training beat down a well-trained and cared for Original V2 Garurumon, wtf
 

Da_Duke2000

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This is common. The Pendulums, and in fact the Agumon/Patamon Digimon Battlers (Child level, Pendulum strength), are at a different tiered strength level than the original V-Pets. You're not doing anything wrong at all :). Pendulums on a Level for Level comparison will always be stronger, and may is often offset to be stronger/equal to the next evolutionary tier (ie: P-Child > V-Adult; P-Adult > V-Perfect). There are some charts out there with "base stats" for each Digimon as well, none that I have access to at the moment, but that also may contribute to the one sided-ness.

Otherwise, don't pull your hair out. It's just how it is. And it makes sense from a marketing perspective as well. "Hey, wanna battle your Greymon (V-Pet) against my Gotsumon (Pendulum 1.0)?" <SLAM/DEATH> "Wow, those new Pendulums are incredibly strong, I can't believe your Child level beat my Greymon. I have to get one for myself!"
 

Ry14

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Nah, I wasn't stressing about it or anything. I figured it was something like that, just wanted some confirmation. Thanks for the reply.

Also lol @ your narrative
 

Da_Duke2000

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No problem! I understand that it's nice to know that it's not just yourself having crazy strong Pendulums.
 

Ry14

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Just a small update to add to this thread. The new Gabumon on my V2 with really not much training beat my godly-trained and cared for Coelamon (going for MegaSeadramon) on my Pendulum 2.0 earlier today. What a fluke. But I guess that proves it can be done, in any case.
 

delta

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Some says the HP shown on these cards implies Pendulum Digimon is much stronger than Vpet Digimon. Is that true? (And what's the name of these cards in fact?)
 

Devimon4000

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There are some charts out there with "base stats" for each Digimon as well, none that I have access to at the moment, but that also may contribute to the one sided-ness.
If it's not the DP run down on File Island any clue where I could find these? Always curious about this kind of stuff.
 

Da_Duke2000

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The charts I've seen are some really questionable Chinese guidebooks, but they were fairly interesting. I'll take a hunt for what I still have laying around my hard drive.
 

BladeSabre

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Thread about who beats who on Original V-Pets:
http://withthewill.net/threads/12560-V-Pet-Battle-Ratio-Successes

I re-uploaded the picture from the OP:
http://i.imgur.com/XldNKpq.jpg

Here's the picture from the Enix Final Data guidebook which I mentioned in the bottom post:
http://i.imgur.com/nlgyhnO.jpg

As well as species having an influence on the outcome of Original V-Pet battles, Digimon also have a power level. On the Original V-Pets themselves, this level can range from 0 to 2. As far as I've seen, 8 protein makes it go up, and a Care Mistake makes it go down. But only the first 16 protein have any effect, and if a Care Mistake makes it go down again then it's stuck there. When the Digimon evolves, the power level goes back to 0, as does the protein count. Training seems to have no effect.

In Original V-Pet battles, Pendulums register as Monzaemon's slot with power level 7, regardless of their actual species. This gives the Pendulum a large unfair advantage.

The Agumon/Patamon battler toys register as Agumon's slot with power level 7, which is not so bad, but still not much use if you want the V-Pet to win a lot.

On the US D-Terminal, all Digimon register as Agumon's slot. The power value ranges from 0-4, and is equal to the Digimon's "V.S.Enegy".
 

Devimon4000

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Thanks! Fascinating stuff.
 

Ry14

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Thread about who beats who on Original V-Pets:
http://withthewill.net/threads/12560-V-Pet-Battle-Ratio-Successes

I re-uploaded the picture from the OP:
http://i.imgur.com/XldNKpq.jpg

Here's the picture from the Enix Final Data guidebook which I mentioned in the bottom post:
http://i.imgur.com/nlgyhnO.jpg

As well as species having an influence on the outcome of Original V-Pet battles, Digimon also have a power level. On the Original V-Pets themselves, this level can range from 0 to 2. As far as I've seen, 8 protein makes it go up, and a Care Mistake makes it go down. But only the first 16 protein have any effect, and if a Care Mistake makes it go down again then it's stuck there. When the Digimon evolves, the power level goes back to 0, as does the protein count. Training seems to have no effect.

In Original V-Pet battles, Pendulums register as Monzaemon's slot with power level 7, regardless of their actual species. This gives the Pendulum a large unfair advantage.

The Agumon/Patamon battler toys register as Agumon's slot with power level 7, which is not so bad, but still not much use if you want the V-Pet to win a lot.

On the US D-Terminal, all Digimon register as Agumon's slot. The power value ranges from 0-4, and is equal to the Digimon's "V.S.Enegy".
So training has no effect; it's all in the protein? I would have thought that training would have the greater effect... how about weight? Any idea whether this influences anything? I would think an unhealthy Digimon stuffed with food and not engaging in any training with a weight of 99g would perform more poorly in battle.
 

Devimon4000

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Shame we don't have any of this kind of info for the Pendulums, be nice to clear up the if the "WarGreymon is weaker then MetalGreymon, but with a longer life-span" belief based off the DP is true or not. Though based on the pendulum evolution lines they were not as standardized so I guess you might have to go into each one to find out the specifics.
 
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BladeSabre

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In Original V-Pet battles, this number between 0 and 2 is passed across in the battle signals, which is how I got hold of it. Training and weight don't change it. Protein and Care Mistakes were the only things I found that had any effect on it. It's possible that the V-Pet takes account of things which don't affect this number, but if so this wouldn't be a very sensible design, because you'd get a different probability depending on who pressed the button to start the battle. (On the other hand, the designers might not care about that, and I have suspected that when battling two different types of device it does matter who presses the button.)

On the PenProg and the Mini, the "power level" passed across in the battle signals is a bigger number with a minimum and a maximum for each species, and training does make that go up. They also have the Da/Vi/Va/--- attribute, which might have the rock-paper-scissors effect from the lore. The PenProg also has one of three "stat types", which combine with the attribute to produce 11 different sequences of stat advancement (and the power level determines how far along in that sequence to take the stats).

I haven't done much with Pendulums yet. Maybe I'll get around to it some day.

Determing what effect things have on the measurable numbers is a reasonable thing to do. Determining what effect things actually have on the probability of winning is really hard. You need an insane number of battles to get any reliable conclusions about this.

By sending an incomplete battle signal, I can make a V-Pet tell me who wins without actually battling, so can count up the results about one per second on the Original V-Pet (I guess about two seconds if I got it working for the newer devices). This brings the task down from "impossible" to "really time-consuming". A V-Pet sending that many battle signals also eats batteries at an alarming rate.
 

Ry14

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Well thanks for the insight. It's interesting to know how this stuff actually works. No wonder some of my "well trained" V-pet Digimon would lose, haha. Even outside of battling Pendulums, some of the V-pet Digimon I spent more time on (training) would lose to other V-pet Digimon I was more lazy with (just feeding protein) and that was always kind of surprising.
 

delta

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As well as species having an influence on the outcome of Original V-Pet battles, Digimon also have a power level. On the Original V-Pets themselves, this level can range from 0 to 2. As far as I've seen, 8 protein makes it go up, and a Care Mistake makes it go down. But only the first 16 protein have any effect, and if a Care Mistake makes it go down again then it's stuck there. When the Digimon evolves, the power level goes back to 0, as does the protein count. Training seems to have no effect.
From what I read in this website training does increase your Digimon's power by maximum 20% of its original power, just like what protein can do. I know this site may not be right though. Also, by intergrating what you and the aforementioned site said, it seems 1 power level = 10% of original power.

Do you have any data about other pedometer device VS Vpet? And does the 'bullet' shown in Vpet indicate anything about what power group of another device's Digimon belongs to?
 
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BladeSabre

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I've only done much testing on English version 1s, so could look more carefully at training on Japanese V-Pets and later versions sometime.

There was a problem with recording data from US/Asia pedometer devices. They have some odd behaviour on the signals, which the real V-Pets can cope with, but my device can't currently. Another thing for maybe sometime.

The "bullet" shown on the V-Pet indicates which growth chart slot the opposing Digimon is in. E.g. if you battle a Pendulum against a V-Pet, the Pendulum Digimon shoots hearts, because it's using Monzaemon's slot. (This is not the case in Pendulum-style battles, where the "bullet" is signalled independently of anything else, so you can technically have any bullet with any sort of Digimon.)
 

Devimon4000

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So just let me see if I have this straight, the power stats add a ten percent or twenty percent chance to the Digimon's base chance? And is that a straight 10% increase or it it 10% of what your base chance was? So lets say your Digimon has a base 7/16 chance, or 43.75%. If your Digimon has a power of 1 then that goes up to 53.75% or is it 48.125.

And I'm not quite clear on what your saying. So a Digimon has some power level, X and to that it add the three stats and that makes 11 possible numbers and your X power determines which of those 11 numbers is used?
 

BladeSabre

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As I said, determining what effect things actually have on the probability of winning is really hard. I dug out my attempt to be systematic about it on English V-Pet version 1s. As you can see, there is a lot of random variation, e.g. a Digimon doesn't win 50% of the time against someone the same as itself. With 100 battles here, it ranges from 44-56%, which is not really surprising. This table does seem to confirm the Greymon > Devimon > Airdramon > Greymon relationship suggested in the Final Data book.



Comparing Devimon P2 (power 2) with Devimon P0, the improvement varies a lot, and in two cases P2 did worse. Not really surprising either, but it doesn't answer your question.



Even with a battery pack mod, the one-battle-per-second hack and automatic counting, I got really sick of it after this point and didn't do any more.

----

As for PenProg stats, they fit together into a table like this. Each species of Digimon has a 4-bit value which I called "stype", which determines its attribute and its stat sequence (the column in the table). Each species also has a minimum and a maximum power level. The power level determines how far along the stat sequence to go (which row in the table). For example, Greymon has stype=2 and power between 0x55 and 0x7D, so its possible stats are 27/6/1, 30/6/1, 33/8/1, 36/8/1, 39/10/2, 42/10/2.

 

Swangsta

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Thread about who beats who on Original V-Pets:

In Original V-Pet battles, Pendulums register as Monzaemon's slot with power level 7, regardless of their actual species. This gives the Pendulum a large unfair advantage.
I am very curious to know more about regarding power level that you mentioned with certain vpet digimon slots. Is there a chart or something somewhere that states all digimon power levels for all the digimons on the vpets?
 

BladeSabre

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The "growth chart slot" and the "power level" are independent. Any Digimon on the Original V-Pets (well, version 1 anyway) can go from power level 0 to 2. The slot and the power level are both taken into account when deciding who wins.

I posted this picture on the previous page. What I called the "growth chart slot" is what the picture is calling "group". For example, the book's "Group B" is slot number 4, and the Digimon shoot lightning. The table indicates the effect of growth chart slot on winning.
http://i.imgur.com/XldNKpq.jpg

For the effect of power level on winning, the tables in my post just above are all I know about that.
 
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