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Mattman324

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they always say that just like that as if they never mention about the new level name above Ultimate level even after Cyber Sleuth with "Ultra level".

Ultra is the dub version of Super Ultimate, which has existed since the end of V-Tamers. See above as to why they didn't just adopt that in full at the time.

(Especially since by V-Tamers reckoning, Omegamon very much isn't Super Ultimate, amongst other things)
 

Bancho

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btw Alterous Mode and Saggitarius mode can evolve from another copy of themselves to trigger their own abilities. It's kind of weird and interesting
 

Yamato-san

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It's like after years upon years of having Ultimates that evolve from other Ultimates, they finally seem to acknowledge that a higher stage is warranted

Which is really, really dumb, because now you'll have to start questioning why the things that evolve from Super Ultimates are still Super Ultimates. Which is a thing that has happened for a long, long time.

The reason Ultimate was the highest level, and usually is the highest level, is that at some point they're either going to have to keep escalating the highest level by more and more, or they're going to have to stop it somewhere - so they did, at Ultimate.

(Especially since by V-Tamers reckoning, Omegamon very much isn't Super Ultimate, amongst other things)
If I had my way, Super Ultimates would just be considered a top pinnacle amongst all Ultimates. There is nothing higher, and at most, Super Ultimates can only Mode Change between one another though still being in roughly the same league. I felt that Cyber Sleuth kinda got it right by making all Super Ultimates have the same stat totals and Memory requirements, but yeah, classifying Omegamon as one seems really iffy. I mean, aside from the fact that it's been curbstomped in all kinds of media, it can be upgraded further into Imperialdramon Paladin Mode, and now Omegamon Merciful Mode (though MAYBE Paladin Mode could be justified as just Omegamon lending Imperialdramon its power, sorta like OmegaShoutmon..... Cyber Sleuth itself got around this by just making the Omega Blade be an item required for evolution). And really, it's not as if the Royal Knights aren't already some apparent higher tier of Ultimates while not (all) explicitly being Super Ultimates, so it should've been fine if they just recognized Omegamon as just a regular Ultimate that happens to evolve from other Ultimates, like Chaosdramon.

And now it bugs me that Millenniumon apparently counts as a Super, since we've known for ages that it has TWO higher forms in Moon and Zeed. Not to mention that vanilla Millenniumon never seemed TOO impressive compared to other Ultimates (putting aside its final boss status in Anode/Cathode, while I'm no expert on the Hyper Colosseum card game, it always came off as pretty weaksauce there, and there's also 02's implication that it was canonically killed by Imperialdramon, or possibly even worse, Paildramon). Really, without its further evolutions, it just kinda comes off as a slightly stronger, Mode Changed Mugendramon (or a plainly evolved Chimeramon depending on how you look at it).
 

Mattman324

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it can be upgraded further into Imperialdramon Paladin Mode, and now Omegamon Merciful Mode (though MAYBE Paladin Mode could be justified as just Omegamon lending Imperialdramon its power

So you'd say Imperialdramon Paladin Mode is one then, yes?

Because at one point Chaosmon was a Jogress utilizing Imperialdramon Paladin Mode as a component.

You can't, by nature, make a "THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE PINNACLE NOTHING CAN POSSIBLY GO HIGHER" class in Digimon, because invariably someone is going to make something higher anyway.
 

Muur

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it can be upgraded further into Imperialdramon Paladin Mode, and now Omegamon Merciful Mode (though MAYBE Paladin Mode could be justified as just Omegamon lending Imperialdramon its power

So you'd say Imperialdramon Paladin Mode is one then, yes?

Because at one point Chaosmon was a Jogress utilizing Imperialdramon Paladin Mode as a component.

You can't, by nature, make a "THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE PINNACLE NOTHING CAN POSSIBLY GO HIGHER" class in Digimon, because invariably someone is going to make something higher anyway.

Paladin Mode isn't a jogress in the first place. It was a power transfer, and Agumon and Gabumon were discarded and watched the final battle. Fighter Mode (Mega) got a power up and evolved to Ultra. the same thing happened to Jesmon X. He got a power transfer from Gankoomon X, Gankoomon reverted to his base stage, and then fought alongside Jesmon GX.

the only ulrta/su i disagree with are belphemon RM and milleniummon

Mercy Mode's debut was in a universe where Omnimon is stated to be Mega. in his appearance as an ultra (rearise) it was just an evolution of wargreymon
 

Dynamicmon

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btw Alterous Mode and Saggitarius mode can evolve from another copy of themselves to trigger their own abilities. It's kind of weird and interesting
should note that these recent red cards make bt1 tai even more viable. and to a lesser extent st1 wargrey
 

Mattman324

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Enlighten me about this.

Apologies, on double checking it was actually regular Imperialdramon. It was, however, opposite Armagemon, which has also been called Super Ultimate before. At the time, it was called ZX-mon and looked like this. It was apparently supposed to be designed as an enemy to either Omegamon X or Omegamon Zwart, who were designed around that time (2004), and was based on the idea of Chaos - but then the idea was taken and used in the Digimon Accels as the Chaosmon we know today.

Unfortunately, while Wikimon sourced this (it's seeable at the bottom of Chaosmon's page), the link went dead at some point.
 

Tarama

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Oh I knew about that. It was the prototype/early concept then. Chaosmon we know now has no relation to Imperialdramon.
 

Yamato-san

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You can't, by nature, make a "THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE PINNACLE NOTHING CAN POSSIBLY GO HIGHER" class in Digimon, because invariably someone is going to make something higher anyway.
We're really just talking about my personal head canon at this point, but I did acknowledge Mode Changes (or Slide Evolutions, or Mutant Evolutions) being possible between other Super Ultimates. And really, the only reason something higher being made is even a possiblity is because the anime (and occasionally other media) feel the need to constantly up the stakes...... and upping the stakes lazily, I might add. Rather than having a clash between two (or more) beings of roughly equal footing, having to strategize around factors like attribute/elemental advantage or special skills, or utilize the field or assistance from allies, the solution seems to always be "evolve to next form, overpower" (for both the villains and the heroes). Not that it really matters in the long run, because after debuting as "teh strongest Digimon evar!!!!!", that Digimon goes on to appear in other media (or even later in the same media) with its strength severely hampered from how it was previously portrayed, to the point that it seems no different from any other Digimon of its respective level (remember when Diablomon seemed strong enough to actually warrant Omegamon coming into existence?).

Enlighten me about this.

Apologies, on double checking it was actually regular Imperialdramon. It was, however, opposite Armagemon, which has also been called Super Ultimate before. At the time, it was called ZX-mon and looked like this. It was apparently supposed to be designed as an enemy to either Omegamon X or Omegamon Zwart, who were designed around that time (2004), and was based on the idea of Chaos - but then the idea was taken and used in the Digimon Accels as the Chaosmon we know today.

Unfortunately, while Wikimon sourced this (it's seeable at the bottom of Chaosmon's page), the link went dead at some point.
For what it's worth, I think Armaggemon was only recently identified as a Super Ultimate in Hacker's Memory. Prior to that, the franchise could never seem to make up its mind on whether Armaggemon's supposed to be an evolution of Diablomon, or just an alternate evolution of Infermon (or a mass fusion of Kuramon).

BTW, while Omegamon X did debut around that time, Zwart did not. I remember because the viral Agumon and Gabumon were around almost forever, but they never seemed to feature an Omegamon equivalent for them until the mobile games started being a thing around 2010 (and even then, they initially made the rather bizarre decision to establish Zwart as "fusion of regular WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon but with Black Digitron added"..... as if the idea of the long-existing BlackWarGreymon and the black MetalGarurumon fusing into this black Omegamon never crossed their minds until Cyber Sleuth, but I digress).
 

Santaskid

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Yeah SU/Ultra is one of those it only exists when game mechanics mandates its exists.

I can't think of other franchises where this happens but I'm sure some exist. Story and lore wise omega, rafflesi and all the others are just mega. However since generally speaking games require you to go from A>B>C>D that's where lv 7/SU/ultra comes into play to sorta I guess make sense to more casual players why did my mega become another mega? But also probably for sale of game play.

It'd be nice to see SU/Ultra get some anime recognition but of course that is unlikely so it will be relegated to only existing when it needs to exist for whatever reason
 

Muur

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Yeah SU/Ultra is one of those it only exists when game mechanics mandates its exists.

I can't think of other franchises where this happens but I'm sure some exist. Story and lore wise omega, rafflesi and all the others are just mega. However since generally speaking games require you to go from A>B>C>D that's where lv 7/SU/ultra comes into play to sorta I guess make sense to more casual players why did my mega become another mega? But also probably for sale of game play.

It'd be nice to see SU/Ultra get some anime recognition but of course that is unlikely so it will be relegated to only existing when it needs to exist for whatever reason

Not true tho; the Burst Digimon, Mode changes expect belphemon, chaosdramon, and tyrantkaubuterimon are all Megas in cyber slueth that evolve from mega. There's no game mechanic that blocks Mega to mega. They went out of their way to label some as mega and some as ultra.
 

Santaskid

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Yeah SU/Ultra is one of those it only exists when game mechanics mandates its exists.

I can't think of other franchises where this happens but I'm sure some exist. Story and lore wise omega, rafflesi and all the others are just mega. However since generally speaking games require you to go from A>B>C>D that's where lv 7/SU/ultra comes into play to sorta I guess make sense to more casual players why did my mega become another mega? But also probably for sale of game play.

It'd be nice to see SU/Ultra get some anime recognition but of course that is unlikely so it will be relegated to only existing when it needs to exist for whatever reason

Not true tho; the Burst Digimon, Mode changes expect belphemon, chaosdramon, and tyrantkaubuterimon are all Megas in cyber slueth that evolve from mega. There's no game mechanic that blocks Mega to mega. They went out of their way to label some as mega and some as ultra.
Yeah i forgot about that... so i guess CS is a case of just random decisions. But still it does seem that 7th evolution level is just something that exists sometimes- and it'd be nice for it to be more standardized i feel. Just like Omegamon is a Jogress- some of the time, like he uses the jogress mechanic but he's only a jogress when 'ultra' or some respective counterpart exists. Otherwise he's as tentomon explained back in YH "A fused digimon" Which is simply due to jogress technically referring to the combinign of 2 digis to reach a higher level since Omegamon is often still a mega =/= jogress at least by 02 standards.
 

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The weirdest situation to me regarding this 'Ultra/SU' discussion is that Beelze BM has never been labeled as Ultra but Gallant CM in the will be despite being in the same mediums and effectively being the same level of power
 

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The weirdest situation to me regarding this 'Ultra/SU' discussion is that Beelze BM has never been labeled as Ultra but Gallant CM in the will be despite being in the same mediums and effectively being the same level of power


Clearly a whole new outfit deserves a higher level than just getting wings and a new weapon.
 

Yamato-san

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Clearly a whole new outfit deserves a higher level than just getting wings and a new weapon.
Uh huh....

The weirdest situation to me regarding this 'Ultra/SU' discussion is that Beelze BM has never been labeled as Ultra but Gallant CM in the will be despite being in the same mediums and effectively being the same level of power
Blast Mode's situation is kinda odd in general. In some respects, he doesn't seem like a straight upgrade so much as vanilla Beelzebumon seeming like an imperfected form of what he's supposed to be. This rings all the more true when you consider Beelzebumon's early design, and a lot of the video games at the time had Blast Mode only, no regular Beelzebumon at all. My guess is that he was always intended to have wings, and he was being implemented in a lot of media as such, but somewhere down the road, they decided to relegate it to a Mode Change instead. And within Tamers, Beelzebumon Blast Mode doesn't look all that special compared to all the other Ultimates. Granted, that may just be because D-Reaper was just that dangerous of an enemy (even with Dukemon, it's not like he went on to give a total curbstomping as soon as he went Crimson Mode..... he did do that to Parasimon in the movie, though). You've also got the opening movie to Digimon World 3, and I think some promotional art of the time IIRC, further suggesting the idea of Blast Mode being an equal to Dukemon (NOT Crimson Mode)..... but ironically, Digimon World 3 also required you to level up Dukemon in order to even access Beelzebumon BM (probably doesn't mean much, considering that game doesn't have a standard evolution system anyway).

But then they went and made vanilla Beelzebumon part of the Seven Great Demon Lords, giving him an implied status as one of the strongest (non-Super) Ultimates out there, rather than being a berserker demon that hadn't gotten his wings yet (keep in mind, the main reason he was so dangerous in the anime is because none of the main characters had encountered an Ultimate up to that point...... not counting Jijimon and Babamon, and I dunno if Gulfmon's canon or not). This probably led to Blast Mode being made to look stronger in turn, but I guess they're somehow still stuck on the idea of Blast being a Slide Evolution rather than an explicit upgrade like Crimson Mode, even when his in-game stats say otherwise.
 

Dynamicmon

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The weirdest situation to me regarding this 'Ultra/SU' discussion is that Beelze BM has never been labeled as Ultra but Gallant CM in the will be despite being in the same mediums and effectively being the same level of power


Clearly a whole new outfit deserves a higher level than just getting wings and a new weapon.
He's also bigger :p it's made very apparent with that shot of BM next to grani gallant
The weirdest situation to me regarding this 'Ultra/SU' discussion is that Beelze BM has never been labeled as Ultra but Gallant CM in the will be despite being in the same mediums and effectively being the same level of power
Blast Mode's situation is kinda odd in general. In some respects, he doesn't seem like a straight upgrade so much as vanilla Beelzebumon seeming like an imperfected form of what he's supposed to be. This rings all the more true when you consider Beelzebumon's early design, and a lot of the video games at the time had Blast Mode only, no regular Beelzebumon at all. My guess is that he was always intended to have wings, and he was being implemented in a lot of media as such, but somewhere down the road, they decided to relegate it to a Mode Change instead. And within Tamers, Beelzebumon Blast Mode doesn't look all that special compared to all the other Ultimates. Granted, that may just be because D-Reaper was just that dangerous of an enemy (even with Dukemon, it's not like he went on to give a total curbstomping as soon as he went Crimson Mode..... he did do that to Parasimon in the movie, though). You've also got the opening movie to Digimon World 3, and I think some promotional art of the time IIRC, further suggesting the idea of Blast Mode being an equal to Dukemon (NOT Crimson Mode)..... but ironically, Digimon World 3 also required you to level up Dukemon in order to even access Beelzebumon BM (probably doesn't mean much, considering that game doesn't have a standard evolution system anyway).

But then they went and made vanilla Beelzebumon part of the Seven Great Demon Lords, giving him an implied status as one of the strongest Ultimates out there, rather than being a berserker demon that hadn't gotten his wings yet (keep in mind, the main reason he was so dangerous in the anime is because none of the main characters had encountered an Ultimate up to that point...... not counting Jijimon and Babamon, and I dunno if Gulfmon's canon or not). This probably led to Blast Mode being made to look stronger, but I guess they're somehow still stuck on the idea of Blast being a Slide Evolution rather than an explicit upgrade like Crimson Mode, even when his in-game stats say otherwise.
also not getting into fusions only sometimes being a higher level than the two digis
 
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