Flamon & Strabimon Previews for Booster Set 4

HeavyLeomon

Junior Commander
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
393
Age
32
I never got why Beast Hybrids were treated like Perfects in the first place. I didn't really see them as all that different than humanoid vs beastly Armor Digimon which where always treated as having similar strength. Plus, having them the same level makes evolution cleaner, given the number of stages in the line and the fact that Fusion Hybrids are mechanically similar to Jogress.

Beast spirit has always been shown to be stronger than the Human spirit in the anime. Even in Adventure:, they made Velgrmon and Calamaramon even stronger than Perfect.
As for the number of stages, they could've make KaiserGreymon a lv7, and then Susanoomon can be whatever Omegamon Merciful Mode's level will be if it ever gets a card.
But I'm talking about the franchise as a whole, where level 6 is the highest recognized level. (with Level 7 being media-dependant and level 8 so far only existing in the X-3)

And it is be true that Beast Hybrids are stronger than Human Hybrids, but then again, this is Digimon, where power level is not homogenous across all Digimon of the same stage, so that doesn't really matter.

It would also make the full lines simpler to implement in media like V-Pets and video games without having to downgrade the Human hybrids, thereby allowing Flamon and Strabimon their proper spots in the lines.
Example, they could have Flamon evolve into either Agnimon or Vritramon, have Agnimon and Vritramon Jogress into Aldamon, and have Aldamon evolve into either AncientGreymon or KaiserGreymon. Then do the same for the Wolfmon line and have KaiserGreymon and MagnaGarurumon Jogress/Fuse (there's supposedly an arbitrary distinction between the two wherein Fusion doesn't increase level like Jogress does) into Susanoomon as usual.

IT WOULD MAKE THE FULL LINES SIMPLER TO IMPLEMENT??? Are you serious bro?
How is this: ADULT(gigasmon)- PERFECT(nothing)-ULTIMATE(ancientvolcamon). Simpler to IMPLEMENT than this: grumblemon- gigasmon - ancientvolcamon. ?
Maybe you dont remember that Wood, water, steel and earth warriors exist.
Neither does Bandai, apparently. Hell, they seem to forget anything but the Fire and Light lines exist.
And they could always just but in some thematically appropriate Perfect that already exists to fill that spot anyway. Like Gogmamon for Earth, as an example

Your point was that It was the simpler way, i dont see why search for a random perfect is simpler than use gigasmon as the perfect.

This entire conversation looks so unnecesary, just bc a guy thinks Beast should be adult, cmon, even japanese fanbase are triggered by beasts treated as adults, thats just a mechanic for a card game.
My only preocupation are the main games, like story, and in story Beast were perfects, Habu knows how the fanbase thinks and thats all i need to care.
 

DragonicEmperor

Junior Commander
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
Messages
239
I know everyone is obsessed with levels but the Spirits and the way they work simply don't translate that well to the regular established level scheme. Adding to that, their powerlevel depends on the wielder so even then they could be way below or above the designed level. (For example, let's assume Aldamon here. When Takuya is used for it, it might be able to be Perfect level or perhaps even Ultimate. But if someone else were to be Aldamon, it might not even reach Perfect level in terms of power, being just a mere Adult.)

Tl;dr: I'm fine with this solution. The Beast Spirits were never really seen as a 'step-up' more so more power in exchange for 'control'. (Which Slide Evolution is a testament too).

Obviously, they could also just ignore all that for the sake of future media like they did now with XRos Wars stuff, so who knows. But the way they handled it here with what we got currently, I think they did well.
 

Grimmon

Junior Commander
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
322
I wouldn't mind the more ambiguous ones (armors, hybrids, Xros - maybe even X antibody forms? those are seen as upgrades often enough) getting various levels for the card game.
 

Sparrow Hawk

Seized the time
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
5,669
Whoa well if they could just have this fusion hybrids treated as Perfect level this easy way.

But I'm happy Flamon and all others made it anyways. That matters to me all now.
 

Theigno

Supper Mοderator
Staff
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
2,707
Age
29
Location
ɯoɹɟ
I don't really see the problem with Devolved = rookie -> Human and Beast = Adult -> Fusion = Ultimate -> Transcendant = Mega -> Susanoomon = Lv. 7
The problem is basically all of the official media describing Hybrids. let's start at the bottom:
Strabimon's profile states that Wolfmon's power was halved. It also states that its power surpasses that of "typical" adult level Digimon. The same is stated in Flamon's profile This means Wolfmon'a and Agnimon's full power is already beyond that of most adult Digimon, and I would argue that this would reasonably extend to the rest of the Human Hybrids as well.
And there is nothing inconsistent about that, we have seen human spirits defeat Perfects. We have seen them evolve from Adult Digimon as well as Child Digimon. But Beast forms have, besides clearly outmatching the Human forms in the anime, been shown to evolve from Adults or even Perfects, but never directly from Child Digimon (until the Pendulum Z), putting them consistently at least at Perfect class.
The classification of the Fusion spirits as Perfects instead of Ultimates is a clear downgrade because having reunited both spirits, their power should be equal to that of the ancient Warriors (the profiles confirm this, stating in each case that they inherited "all the might" of their ancient counterparts) the ancient warriors, of course being Ultimates, not Perfects and not even especially weak Ultimates at that (AncientGreymon is even said to have power surpassing "current Ultimates").
The Transcendent forms were capable of taking on Royal Knights, who are often established to be on the higher tier of Ultimates, both in Frontier itself and the following media like Savers where Burst Modes were needed to keep up with them.

Again, I don't think any of this is inconsistent. There wasn't anything illogical going on. The inclusion of the transcendental forms was strange back in 2002 when anything beyond ultimate was usually reserved for the very final conflicts and not something that happened after two thirds of the story. But that was back then.
The irony is that the franchise is in a place now where we have quite a significant number of number of Digimon with forms beyond Ultimate, so anything from Fusion Hybrids up being Ultimates wouldn't really be a serious balance concern when including them in games and such.
So it's strange that right now they decide to downgrade them for the card game.

So in general: mapping the levels down works "in isolation" but I would argue that it is not keeping with the precedent the franchise has set so far (And I definitely argue that precedent is still valid even when sourced from media that are not 100% consistent with each other)

(one being strictly better than the other just seems pretty dumb tbh especially since both humans and beasts were supposed to be in a war? If they weren'tequal that wouldn't be a war it'd be a massacre).
No one ever argued that all beast and humanoid species of Digimon in general follow the same pattern of strength the spirits do, so that doesn't prove much either way.
But I guess it could be argued to be the case, massacre included, since after all, Cherubimon, the only representative of the beast tribe among the great angels very handily overthrew whatever forces Seraphimon and Ofanimon had at their disposal, before the beginning of the main story of Frontier.

Just say that the human ones are a lot more stable and intelligent and that makes up for the power difference so one isn't strictly better
That is completely missing the point since while strength is a very obvious indicator of higher levels, intelligence, or the lack thereof, is not. It's like arguing that two cars are equally fast because the one capable of reaching higher speeds has better handling.

Isn't there also the argument that some people view levels as referring to stage of growth and not strictly power?
Advancing to the "next stage of growth" comes with a very explicit increase in power in about 95% of all evolutions. Attempting to separate the two tends to be either a result of willful ignorance and/or not understanding statistics. This argument also completely falls apart when you realize that most unnaturally strong child level Digimon for example also tend to evolve into unnatural strong adults and so on, so the progression from weak to strong through evolution is not actually violated from that frame of reference either.

And it is be true that Beast Hybrids are stronger than Human Hybrids, but then again, this is Digimon, where power level is not homogenous across all Digimon of the same stage, so that doesn't really matter.
I'd say it clearly matters, if it is done consistently throughout an entire group. If strength didn't matter why not have the transcendent forms be adults as well?

In fact, the finale of Frontier confirms this by having the Human Spirits speak to the Chosen through their D-Scanners.
And I would take that as an argument against your interpretation of them being different entities, because of they are, why do half of them never manifest? I would argue because there's only one actual warrior per spirit pair and the human spirit is the preferred way of communicating.

In the anime, the Spirits are two separate objects, each holding only half the power of the Ancient Warrior who created them.
It was never stated that the strength was distributed evenly between the two spirits.
It's also shown that the Spirits can be separate entities as, iirc, there was a Digimon, I believe it was either Sepikmon or Shamamon, that was taken over by the Beast Spirit of Flame causing it to Evolve into Vritramon and run wild before Takuya got it, forcing the Chosen to fight it and extract the spirit. So, yes, they can function as distinct creatures.
However, the beast spirit in those moments did not possess any signs of sentience or personality. And him simply existing means little in the digital world where data can be spliced up and manipulated.
That Agnimon and vritramon exist separately doesn't disprove that they are are part of the same entity, just like Just like Mercuremon could use Seraphimon's data for what was basically a pseudo fusion-spirit evolution while Seraphimon's actual soul was already reborn in Patamon. One source of data, multiple physical manifestations.
 

Mattman324

I come from the net
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Aug 12, 2020
Messages
1,609
Location
somewhere
as somebody who didn't get far into Frontier before streaming sites removed it, how are the hybrids supposed to flow into eachother and where is the confusion coming from? I am very confused

Human and Beast slide evolve into each other, a la Imperialdramon's two modes. Fusion combines the power of both modes into one, the two from the show being directly just "pieces from the two spirits Flex Taped together" essentially. Past that, Fire and Light get combinations from having half the spirits, and past that is Susanoomon.

but I see it difficult to happen at this point ...

Would you have expected Metalogremon to be a recent thing either?
 

McGann

Completely digital
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
877
But I'm talking about the franchise as a whole, where level 6 is the highest recognized level. (with Level 7 being media-dependant and level 8 so far only existing in the X-3)

Then there's no reason for Aldamon, KaiserGreymon and Susanoomon can't all be the same level which is level 6.
The number of stages already perfectly mirrors the number of stages in Adventure, so it's not really a good excuse to downgrade the Beast spirit.
Flamon = Agumon
Agnimon = Greymon
Vritramon = MetalGreymon
Aldamon = WarGreymon
KaiserGreymon = Omegamon
Susanoomon = Omegamon MM
There's 8 warriors left and 4 colours with no Hybrids. What if it followed the model of using the humans as the Lvl 4s and Beats as Lvl 5s for the remaining:

Green:
Lvl 4 - Kazemon / Grumblemon
Lvl 5 - Zephrmon / Gigasmon
Lvl 6 - JetSilphymon
Lvl 7 - Susanoomon

Then:
Yellow - Beetlemon / Arborm
Black - Loweemon / Mercuremon
Purple - Ranamon / Duskmon
Blue - Kumamon (Extra)

That works out pretty fair. This way each colour has two Lvl 4 options.
And honestly, I don't think they're gonna add a Lvl 8 so soon if at all.
 

Rohan

I come from the net
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Aug 13, 2016
Messages
1,641
Location
England
To return to the topic of the cards actually revealed in this thread, I'm somewhat surprised thinking about it that they decided to make Strabimon and the rest of his Evo-line Blue since he's the Warrior of Light thus I would have expected him to be Yellow and not to mention both the Ranamon and Kumamon lines would also presumably be Blue then it feels off-balance since I wouldn't expect any other of the Hybrids to be Red.

Who knows, I guess we'll just have to wait and see... :unsure:
 

Tetsuya Suoh

Junior Commander
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
366
Age
35
I don't really see the problem with Devolved = rookie -> Human and Beast = Adult -> Fusion = Ultimate -> Transcendant = Mega -> Susanoomon = Lv. 7
The problem is basically all of the official media describing Hybrids. let's start at the bottom:
Strabimon's profile states that Wolfmon's power was halved. It also states that its power surpasses that of "typical" adult level Digimon. The same is stated in Flamon's profile This means Wolfmon'a and Agnimon's full power is already beyond that of most adult Digimon, and I would argue that this would reasonably extend to the rest of the Human Hybrids as well.
And there is nothing inconsistent about that, we have seen human spirits defeat Perfects. We have seen them evolve from Adult Digimon as well as Child Digimon. But Beast forms have, besides clearly outmatching the Human forms in the anime, been shown to evolve from Adults or even Perfects, but never directly from Child Digimon (until the Pendulum Z), putting them consistently at least at Perfect class.
The classification of the Fusion spirits as Perfects instead of Ultimates is a clear downgrade because having reunited both spirits, their power should be equal to that of the ancient Warriors (the profiles confirm this, stating in each case that they inherited "all the might" of their ancient counterparts) the ancient warriors, of course being Ultimates, not Perfects and not even especially weak Ultimates at that (AncientGreymon is even said to have power surpassing "current Ultimates").
The Transcendent forms were capable of taking on Royal Knights, who are often established to be on the higher tier of Ultimates, both in Frontier itself and the following media like Savers where Burst Modes were needed to keep up with them.

Again, I don't think any of this is inconsistent. There wasn't anything illogical going on. The inclusion of the transcendental forms was strange back in 2002 when anything beyond ultimate was usually reserved for the very final conflicts and not something that happened after two thirds of the story. But that was back then.
The irony is that the franchise is in a place now where we have quite a significant number of number of Digimon with forms beyond Ultimate, so anything from Fusion Hybrids up being Ultimates wouldn't really be a serious balance concern when including them in games and such.
So it's strange that right now they decide to downgrade them for the card game.

So in general: mapping the levels down works "in isolation" but I would argue that it is not keeping with the precedent the franchise has set so far (And I definitely argue that precedent is still valid even when sourced from media that are not 100% consistent with each other)

(one being strictly better than the other just seems pretty dumb tbh especially since both humans and beasts were supposed to be in a war? If they weren'tequal that wouldn't be a war it'd be a massacre).
No one ever argued that all beast and humanoid species of Digimon in general follow the same pattern of strength the spirits do, so that doesn't prove much either way.
But I guess it could be argued to be the case, massacre included, since after all, Cherubimon, the only representative of the beast tribe among the great angels very handily overthrew whatever forces Seraphimon and Ofanimon had at their disposal, before the beginning of the main story of Frontier.

Just say that the human ones are a lot more stable and intelligent and that makes up for the power difference so one isn't strictly better
That is completely missing the point since while strength is a very obvious indicator of higher levels, intelligence, or the lack thereof, is not. It's like arguing that two cars are equally fast because the one capable of reaching higher speeds has better handling.

Isn't there also the argument that some people view levels as referring to stage of growth and not strictly power?
Advancing to the "next stage of growth" comes with a very explicit increase in power in about 95% of all evolutions. Attempting to separate the two tends to be either a result of willful ignorance and/or not understanding statistics. This argument also completely falls apart when you realize that most unnaturally strong child level Digimon for example also tend to evolve into unnatural strong adults and so on, so the progression from weak to strong through evolution is not actually violated from that frame of reference either.

And it is be true that Beast Hybrids are stronger than Human Hybrids, but then again, this is Digimon, where power level is not homogenous across all Digimon of the same stage, so that doesn't really matter.
I'd say it clearly matters, if it is done consistently throughout an entire group. If strength didn't matter why not have the transcendent forms be adults as well?

In fact, the finale of Frontier confirms this by having the Human Spirits speak to the Chosen through their D-Scanners.
And I would take that as an argument against your interpretation of them being different entities, because of they are, why do half of them never manifest? I would argue because there's only one actual warrior per spirit pair and the human spirit is the preferred way of communicating.

In the anime, the Spirits are two separate objects, each holding only half the power of the Ancient Warrior who created them.
It was never stated that the strength was distributed evenly between the two spirits.
It's also shown that the Spirits can be separate entities as, iirc, there was a Digimon, I believe it was either Sepikmon or Shamamon, that was taken over by the Beast Spirit of Flame causing it to Evolve into Vritramon and run wild before Takuya got it, forcing the Chosen to fight it and extract the spirit. So, yes, they can function as distinct creatures.
However, the beast spirit in those moments did not possess any signs of sentience or personality. And him simply existing means little in the digital world where data can be spliced up and manipulated.
That Agnimon and vritramon exist separately doesn't disprove that they are are part of the same entity, just like Just like Mercuremon could use Seraphimon's data for what was basically a pseudo fusion-spirit evolution while Seraphimon's actual soul was already reborn in Patamon. One source of data, multiple physical manifestations.
I'd say the Beast Spirits being able to completely control the person or Digimon using it if their will isn't strong enough is a good argument for them having a will of their own. Takuya had the fight to control the spirit, that shouldn't have been an issue if the Spirit had no will of it's own, or if it was just an extension of the Spirit he already had control over.
 

e105zeta

I come from the net
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
1,496
To return to the topic of the cards actually revealed in this thread, I'm somewhat surprised thinking about it that they decided to make Strabimon and the rest of his Evo-line Blue since he's the Warrior of Light thus I would have expected him to be Yellow and not to mention both the Ranamon and Kumamon lines would also presumably be Blue then it feels off-balance since I wouldn't expect any other of the Hybrids to be Red.

Who knows, I guess we'll just have to wait and see... :unsure:
Wolfmon was originally going to be the Spirit of Ice after all . . .
 

HeavyLeomon

Junior Commander
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
393
Age
32
I wouldn't expect any other of the Hybrids to be Red.
Grottomon/Gigasmon could be Red if they're drawn in a volcanic environment.

Also ancientvolcamon is related to fire cause the magma, sadly i doubt we are going to see ancientvolcamon nor the Evil spirits due to the stupid decission of make beasts lvl 4 🙄
 

TMS

Super Moderator
Staff
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
12,525
Age
32
Location
Ohio
To return to the topic of the cards actually revealed in this thread, I'm somewhat surprised thinking about it that they decided to make Strabimon and the rest of his Evo-line Blue since he's the Warrior of Light thus I would have expected him to be Yellow and not to mention both the Ranamon and Kumamon lines would also presumably be Blue then it feels off-balance since I wouldn't expect any other of the Hybrids to be Red.

I'm not terribly surprised by it, since the two lines are meant to mirror Taichi's and Yamato's from Adventure. Also, despite being associated with the element of light, AncientGarurumon and the Light Hybrids haven't typically been classified as Holy Digimon. The only real allusion to holiness in the group comes from Wolfmon's profile.
 

Bancho

I'd rather roll
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
3,373
Age
25
Location
Seattle
Grottomon/Gigasmon could be Red if they're drawn in a volcanic environment.
Also ancientvolcamon is related to fire cause the magma
honestly I think Grotto and Grumble would fit super well as a Red card!
I think I can see the spirit colors as something like

Red: Fire, Earth
Blue: Light, Water, Ice
Yellow: Thunder
Green: Wind, Wood
Purple: Darkness
Black: Steel
White: Susanoomon
 

TMS

Super Moderator
Staff
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
12,525
Age
32
Location
Ohio
I would think that Thunder would be Black, but the themes are so loose that it's hard to say. Could even be Green, since Blitzmon had a Nature card in Jintrix/Crusader. Yellow might get it though just because of the yellow in its design.
 

McGann

Completely digital
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
877
He definitely fits Black with his electric and metal themes. Plus Kokuwamon is already a Rookie in that colour.
But if you do want at least one Hybrid per colour, and you're not going to use the actual warrior of light, he's the next best fit.
Not unless you count the purified Loweemon. (He'd work pretty well as a duel colour; Purole, during your turn also Yellow.)
 

Mattman324

I come from the net
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Aug 12, 2020
Messages
1,609
Location
somewhere
Not unless you count the purified Loweemon.

I would expect Lowemon to be Purple on first print, and then on second print it, Kaiserleomon, and Reichmon go... I dunno, to another color. They all fit into Black as well, and could be argued for Yellow yes.
 

YongYoKyo

I come from the net
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
1,188
While Blitzmon and Bolgmon are Cyborgs, AncientBeatmon itself is supposed to represent insects. RhinoKabuterimon also completely abandons the Cyborg theme. Between machine and insect, the latter is the stronger theme; hence, I think Green is the most likely. Element-wise, the Kabuterimon line uses electricity anyways.

As for what could be used for Yellow instead, Wind is a possibility; especially considering AncientIrismon's rainbow spectrum-theme. There are already Yellow Fairies anyways like Tinkermon and Piccolomon. I can also see Loweemon being Yellow while Duskmon is Purple.
 
Last edited:

Bancho

I'd rather roll
Show User Social Media
Hide User Social Media
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
3,373
Age
25
Location
Seattle
As for what could be used for Yellow instead, Wind is a possibility; especially considering AncientIrismon's rainbow spectrum-theme. There are already Yellow Fairies anyways like Tinkermon and Piccolomon
oh, I like this so much more! I only put the Thunder spirits in Yellow to have something in Yellow and definitely felt that Blitzmon and Bolgmon are a lot more Black aligned. But with Tinkermon, Petermon, Sirenmon, and the literal Piximon in Yellow, Yellow is definitely the fairy color!
 
Last edited:
Top