Dim Card Set v3 Espimon & Ryudamon Evolution Charts- Legend Arms, BlackTailmon Uver, & More!

RogueX4

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Those new ultimates feel like they were conceptualized as jogress. I can see the Ushi Oni one being based on fusing Dokugumon & Musyamon.
Considering the arm cannon, it’s more likely Dokugumon+Minotaurmon.

True. I can see that. I was a bit iffy on Minotarumon at first, because it's kind of a puppet Digimon + I wasn't so sure if he is more popularly accepted as champion or as ultimate of the top of my head. I guess, champion it is.

He was a champion in 1998 in ver.s and one trading card then was retconned next time he showed up. He hasn't been ultimate in 24 years
As far as I’m aware Minotaurmon is in a similar scenario as Whamon. It would be nice if they address it someday. I’m not aware if they’ve made an entry about the same Digimon but with different levels. Would be sweet if they explored that.
 

SnowAgumonGemini

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Enlarged images of the two new Perfects, we see the demonic aspect of Gyukimon with a Mephismon-like head, we also see purifying talismans on his body (plus one on the lower head), Oboromon seems to be an Armor mounted on a skull spirit, his body is covered with arrows, a good pre-evo for Zanbamon in my opinion.
Oboromon also seems to be on top a wheel, although it's a bit difficult to make sure, which would make sense, since the Oboroguruma yokai is a haunted oxcart. Howecer, the oboro part of the name means "hazy", so it might just be a samurai upper body on top of a cloudy ghost spirit.
I also thought I could make out wheels. The grayish round shape hidden by the bone-sword arm looks a bit like a wheel to me. So my guess is that the bottom half might be like a ghostly skull chariot/wheelchair. To me, his bony sword hand looks so much like Zanbamon’s horse head. Oboromon has definitely become my favorite to fill the gap between Musyamon and Zanbamon.

Gyokimon makes the perfect jogress between Minotarumon and Dokugumon—and possibly any evolutions from them despite jogressing or not.

I have a soft spot for yokai and other creatures of folk legends, so I’m loving these new guys in the Ryudamon Dim. Espimon and HoverEspimon still need to grow on me more. I do like their color scheme (and did not expect it myself—thinking more like yellow critter with silver space suit) and I appreciate their design originality.
 

YongYoKyo

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As far as I’m aware Minotaurmon is in a similar scenario as Whamon. It would be nice if they address it someday. I’m not aware if they’ve made an entry about the same Digimon but with different levels. Would be sweet if they explored that.
They have made such an entry. It's the aforementioned Whamon; both the Adult-level and the Perfect-level Whamon have their own entries in the Digimon Reference Book.

The latter's entry even acknowledges the existence of the former; the Whamon that lives near File Island is Adult-level, while the Whamon that lives near Folder Continent is Perfect-level.

It's a distinctly different situation from Minotaurmon, where only the Adult-level has been acknowledged for practically the past couple dozens of years.
 

Muur

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As far as I’m aware Minotaurmon is in a similar scenario as Whamon. It would be nice if they address it someday. I’m not aware if they’ve made an entry about the same Digimon but with different levels. Would be sweet if they explored that.
They have made such an entry. It's the aforementioned Whamon; both the Adult-level and the Perfect-level Whamon have their own entries in the Digimon Reference Book.

The latter's entry even acknowledges the existence of the former; the Whamon that lives near File Island is Adult-level, while the Whamon that lives near Folder Continent is Perfect-level.

It's a distinctly different situation from Minotaurmon, where only the Adult-level has been acknowledged for practically the past couple dozens of years.
Times Minotaurmon has been Ultimate level;

1997, Digital Monster Ver.S

1999, Bo-21 trading card

that's it.

it's no different than that one time Drimogeomon was Rookie or Lucemon Champion. It's just the fan wikis being stupid because hyper colluseum did a card as Ultimate in 1999 and then a card in 2001 as champion and then because the same card game had two of them that means its a new species instead of a retcon.

so Ultimate twice and Champion 31 times. Lucemon has been Champion twice btw, so does that mean two Lucemon exist too
 

Bancho

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It's just the fan wikis being stupid because hyper colluseum did a card as Ultimate in 1999 and then a card in 2001 as champion and then because the same card game had two of them that means its a new species instead of a retcon.
yeah, shouldn't they just have 1 wiki entry for Minotaurmon and just list it had been Ultimate in some media? That just makes more sense. Maybe their reasoning is that later cards refer to it as a pre-evolution?
 

robiu013

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Those new ultimates feel like they were conceptualized as jogress. I can see the Ushi Oni one being based on fusing Dokugumon & Musyamon.
Considering the arm cannon, it’s more likely Dokugumon+Minotaurmon.

True. I can see that. I was a bit iffy on Minotarumon at first, because it's kind of a puppet Digimon + I wasn't so sure if he is more popularly accepted as champion or as ultimate of the top of my head. I guess, champion it is.

He was a champion in 1998 in ver.s and one trading card then was retconned next time he showed up. He hasn't been ultimate in 24 years
As far as I’m aware Minotaurmon is in a similar scenario as Whamon. It would be nice if they address it someday. I’m not aware if they’ve made an entry about the same Digimon but with different levels. Would be sweet if they explored that.
Tbh, my hypothesis on Whamon is they retconned him as ultimate, because they had a free spot on the Deep Savers pendulum and Whamon felt fitting as a next form of Dolphmon + they could just reuse the sprites of Vpet 2.0.

Probably the same trivial reason behind Minotarumon. He was introduced for the game Digital Monster Ver. S on Sega Saturn, which introduced a handful of Digimon who got re-leveled in later media: SaberLeomon, Syakomon, Ebidramon, Magnadramon, Mechanorimon. All level ultimate initially. Those Digimon would have their levels changed on the pendulum series of Vpets, Minotarumon however never appeared on a Vpet until Pendulum Z (if you don't count the Digivices).

First time Minotarumon appeared as a champion was Anode Tamer/Cathode Tamer for the Wonderswan, where the ultimate & mega levels were reserved for bosses, obtainable Digimon went to champion only. Maybe that explains the change, but it doesn't explain why he wasn't just omitted like MetalGreymon, Mamemon etc. The game also features Syakomon, Ebidramon & Mechanorimon from Ver. S, but all of them had their levels changed in the pendulum series already prior to this.
 

RogueX4

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As far as I’m aware Minotaurmon is in a similar scenario as Whamon. It would be nice if they address it someday. I’m not aware if they’ve made an entry about the same Digimon but with different levels. Would be sweet if they explored that.
They have made such an entry. It's the aforementioned Whamon; both the Adult-level and the Perfect-level Whamon have their own entries in the Digimon Reference Book.

The latter's entry even acknowledges the existence of the former; the Whamon that lives near File Island is Adult-level, while the Whamon that lives near Folder Continent is Perfect-level.

It's a distinctly different situation from Minotaurmon, where only the Adult-level has been acknowledged for practically the past couple dozens of years.
Times Minotaurmon has been Ultimate level;

1997, Digital Monster Ver.S

1999, Bo-21 trading card

that's it.

it's no different than that one time Drimogeomon was Rookie or Lucemon Champion. It's just the fan wikis being stupid because hyper colluseum did a card as Ultimate in 1999 and then a card in 2001 as champion and then because the same card game had two of them that means its a new species instead of a retcon.

so Ultimate twice and Champion 31 times. Lucemon has been Champion twice btw, so does that mean two Lucemon exist too
Lucemon canon wise is a Child level Digimon whose “not supposed” to go beyond that because it’s already supposed to be “perfect”. Even surpassing actual Perfect level Digimon. Falldown mode is surpassing itself and that’s why it’s classified as a Perfect and skips Adult level. Satan Mode is surpassing that even more, however that was always the point of the Ultimate level (surpassing what is considered “perfection”). There’s no place in the canon for Lucemon (Child nor Falldown Mode) to be classified as an Adult level Digimon. Hence why it is only seen because of gameplay mechanics.

Unlike Minotaurmon who is a normal/average Digimon. There’s nothing denying the Perfect variant from existing in canon and lore. Specially since we have Whamon setting up a precedent. There’s also nothing “stupid” about it, since they wikis (in this case at least) are doing what they are supposed to do archive historical data about the series.

The “Time” argument doesn’t mean anything since a couple of years back someone could of used that same rhetoric for Cleartoyagumon, Kingwhamon, Koemon, BlackKingNumemon, and any other lesser obscure forgotten Digimon. Rember King Sukamon? It wasn’t till recently (Cyber Sleuth, Adventure:, Ghost Game, TCG, Habu, etc.) they’ve been showing up again. (And I for one am truly grateful for it).

Then there’s Bilkmon…

Edit: I think this is the most important question: is there anything official that rejects Minotaurmon Perfect?
 
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Muur

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Those new ultimates feel like they were conceptualized as jogress. I can see the Ushi Oni one being based on fusing Dokugumon & Musyamon.
Considering the arm cannon, it’s more likely Dokugumon+Minotaurmon.

True. I can see that. I was a bit iffy on Minotarumon at first, because it's kind of a puppet Digimon + I wasn't so sure if he is more popularly accepted as champion or as ultimate of the top of my head. I guess, champion it is.

He was a champion in 1998 in ver.s and one trading card then was retconned next time he showed up. He hasn't been ultimate in 24 years
As far as I’m aware Minotaurmon is in a similar scenario as Whamon. It would be nice if they address it someday. I’m not aware if they’ve made an entry about the same Digimon but with different levels. Would be sweet if they explored that.
Tbh, my hypothesis on Whamon is they retconned him as ultimate, because they had a free spot on the Deep Savers pendulum and Whamon felt fitting as a next form of Dolphmon + they could just reuse the sprites of Vpet 2.0.

Probably the same trivial reason behind Minotarumon. He was introduced for the game Digital Monster Ver. S on Sega Saturn, which introduced a handful of Digimon who got re-leveled in later media: SaberLeomon, Syakomon, Ebidramon, Magnadramon, Mechanorimon. All level ultimate initially. Those Digimon would have their levels changed on the pendulum series of Vpets, Minotarumon however never appeared on a Vpet until Pendulum Z (if you don't count the Digivices).

First time Minotarumon appeared as a champion was Anode Tamer/Cathode Tamer for the Wonderswan, where the ultimate & mega levels were reserved for bosses, obtainable Digimon went to champion only. Maybe that explains the change, but it doesn't explain why he wasn't just omitted like MetalGreymon, Mamemon etc. The game also features Syakomon, Ebidramon & Mechanorimon from Ver. S, but all of them had their levels changed in the pendulum series already prior to this.
Both Whamon are raiseable in the 20th pendulum, the Ultimate mentions the Champion in the profile, and Whamon cards can evolve from Whamon. Bandai have been pretty clear there's two of them. Minotaurmon meanwhile there is not two of them. Wikimon can pretend there is but when a guy debuted as Ultimate then was dropped down a level, it's no different to Syakomon so by that logic there should be two Syakomon species too.

Edit: I think this is the most important question: is there anything official that rejects Minotaurmon Perfect?

What does that even mean.

In its first two appearances it was Ultiamte and then hasn't been in two entire decades. This is not similar to any of those other Digimon you mentioned
 

YongYoKyo

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Edit: I think this is the most important question: is there anything official that rejects Minotaurmon Perfect?
Just some advice on deductive reasoning, that is one of the least important question in any discussion. It's an informal fallacy. The absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence. Otherwise, you could easily make something up and apply the same question to justify it.
 

Bancho

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I think the most productive thing is to ask what separates Minotaurmon from other level changes at the time and to come to the subjective conclusion on if it was different enough from those other adjustments to imply that there are two seperate versions of Minotaurmon that were acknowledged by the franchise simultaneously. The different versions existing in the card game did mean this objectively happened but it can be reasonably argued that was an oversight and without intention.

I don't think it's a similar case to Whamon as the franchise is very explicit that it recognizes it at two levels simultaneously as a part of world building whereas a statement wasn't made by Minotaurmon as far as I know.

But yeah, I think this might be getting a little derailed and unfocused
 

Unknown Neo

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I'd love to see a jorōgumo evolution for Arachnemon.
Oh, I had that idea in the fan made topic. But new Mons! And 2 based on Yokai? Cool. What's with Espimon. Is that a new partner or just a new Digimon. Or like Black Gatomon UVER.
 

RogueX4

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@Muur How is my question complicated? It’s a simple yes or no.

@YongYoKyo How is official (objective) canon not an important point? If there’s an oficial statement that Minotaurmon Perfect IS a thing then it’s a thing. If there’s an official statement that it is NOT then it is not. If there isn’t any official statement then there isn’t any.

I understand your point if I was making something up BUT I’m not. Minotaurmon Perfect belonged to official Bandai products. If they want they could use him or not however it’s still official.

I also want to note I never even wrote it was the exact situation as Whamon (I wrote similar. Something similar isn’t exactly the same but share traits.) and even wrote that I would like to see it cleared up. I believe YongYoKyo and Muur might be missing the point. However I do agreed with robiou013 (his real world analysis and theory) and agree with Bancho overall. Bancho’s right this isn’t the point of the thread.

Never thought I’d ever be discussing Minotaurmon this deeply, so thank you.
 

zoosmell

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I think the most productive thing is to ask what separates Minotaurmon from other level changes at the time and to come to the subjective conclusion on if it was different enough from those other adjustments to imply that there are two seperate versions of Minotaurmon that were acknowledged by the franchise simultaneously. The different versions existing in the card game did mean this objectively happened but it can be reasonably argued that was an oversight and without intention.

I don't think it's a similar case to Whamon as the franchise is very explicit that it recognizes it at two levels simultaneously as a part of world building whereas a statement wasn't made by Minotaurmon as far as I know.

But yeah, I think this might be getting a little derailed and unfocused
I think the main thing worth noting in this case is the way the later Adult card was named in the card game-- literally "Minotaurmon Adult." The same way "Whamon Perfect" or "Burgamon Adult," or the Arkadimons, are also named.

So it wasn't just "Minotaurmon" with a quiet, unacknowledged level retcon (suggesting it's the same mon but with this one attribute changed). The card used the same naming style used for other same-name-different-level/species Digimon. The former would certainly have been simpler, and it's what's pretty much happened to other variable level Digimon: it's just not brought up when it changes. They for some reason felt the need here.

The extent to whether one can argue that this "doesn't count" I don't think matters. I agree with RogueX4--it isn't the wiki's job to decide that, it's to properly document franchise history, and at that point in history, they treated the Adult version as a distinct variant.
 

YongYoKyo

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@YongYoKyo How is official (objective) canon not an important point? If there’s an oficial statement that Minotaurmon Perfect IS a thing then it’s a thing. If there’s an official statement that it is NOT then it is not. If there isn’t any official statement then there isn’t any.

I understand your point if I was making something up BUT I’m not. Minotaurmon Perfect belonged to official Bandai products. If they want they could use him or not however it’s still official.

I also want to note I never even wrote it was the exact situation as Whamon (I wrote similar. Something similar isn’t exactly the same but share traits.) and even wrote that I would like to see it cleared up. I believe YongYoKyo and Muur might be missing the point. However I do agreed with robiou013 (his real world analysis and theory) and agree with Bancho overall. Bancho’s right this isn’t the point of the thread.

Never thought I’d ever be discussing Minotaurmon this deeply, so thank you.
I wasn't addressing your point. I was advising you on the fallacious logic behind your argument, not the content of the argument itself. I wasn't planning to continue with the argument itself.

Official canon is important, but you're not talking about something that is stated by the canon. You were talking about the absence of canon that disproves your point as if it proves anything (which is known as 'appeal to ignorance'); which, as I've explained, doesn't really mean anything.
I understand your point if I was making something up BUT I’m not.
This doesn't disprove the fallacy. You even acknowledged that your logic can also be applied to fictional statements, which just proves the lack of credibility of said logic. Your "BUT I'm not" doesn't mean anything, because someone who's lying could also say the same thing. Why should I trust them, or rather, why should I trust you?

Do you now understand the issue with your logic? Also, since you're keen on dragging me back into your argument, I'll also address some of your other flawed reasonings.
  • Your distinction between Lucemon and Minotaurmon is arbitrarily biased and upholding double standards. It also doesn't address the other Digimon, along with Minotaurmon, who were assigned as Perfect-level in the ver.S (like Shakomon, Holydramon, Mechanorimon, and SaberLeomon).
  • You're very partial to using 'precedents', but precedents have more relevance the closer their situations match. The more different they are, the less relevant they are. As addressed, Whamon's situation is distinctly different from Minotaurmon's. Minotaurmon's situation more closely matches the situation of the other aforementioned ver.S Digimon.
However, Minotaurmon is also distinct from the other ver.S Digimon in that both of Minotaurmon's levels have their own separate cards in Hyper Colosseum. As such, Minotaurmon is frankly a unique case of its own, so precedents in general hold little relevance to Minotaurmon.

I think the main thing worth noting in this case is the way the later Adult card was named in the card game-- literally "Minotaurmon Adult." The same way "Whamon Perfect" or "Burgamon Adult," or the Arkadimons, are also named.

So it wasn't just "Minotaurmon" with a quiet, unacknowledged level retcon (suggesting it's the same mon but with this one attribute changed). The card used the same naming style used for other same-name-different-level/species Digimon. The former would certainly have been simpler, and it's what's pretty much happened to other variable level Digimon: it's just not brought up when it changes. They for some reason felt the need here.
You're forgetting that there is an innate gameplay reason for the name change.

In Hyper Colosseum, evolution of cards depends on the name of the card itself. If there is no difference in name between the two levels of Minotaurmon, then a card that lists "Minotaurmon" as a pre-evolution can arbitrarily evolve from either the Adult or the Perfect, which obviously shouldn't happen.

The cases of the other Digimon that doesn't change names with differences in attributes or fields are irrelevant, because they all still maintain the same level as the other cards that share the same name (including X-Antibodies).
A card that evolves from "Agumon" will still evolve from a Child-level card, regardless of whether it's the regular Vaccine one, the black Virus one, or the X-Antibody one. Even Magnamon X is categorized as an Adult-level, despite being officially recorded as Ultimate in the DRB; because it shares the same name as regular Magnamon (who is an Adult in Hyper Colosseum).

A 'quiet, unacknowledged level retcon' is physically impossible without interfering with how the mechanics of the game work. Either they make the second card the same level as the first one (which defeats the purpose of a level retcon), or they change the name of the second card.
 

CloneWarrior

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A 'quiet, unacknowledged level retcon' is physically impossible without interfering with how the mechanics of the game work. Either they make the second card the same level as the first one (which defeats the purpose of a level retcon), or they change the name of the second card.

Okay, but the whole point here is that they wouldn't have taken any of those steps if it was "an oversight and without intention," which is what Bancho asked about and what zoosmell was responding to here.

Also, they never introduced any cards afterwards that evolved from Minotaurmon Adult but they did introduce at least one more card that evolved from Minotaurmon (Perfect).
 

DragonSpartan90

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The other thing of note, besides the new Digimon, is that these DIMs potentially spoil what Digimon will appear in future episodes like RareRaremon and Manticoremon.
 

Mattman324

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they did introduce at least one more card that evolved from Minotaurmon (Perfect).
Hilariously, it also happens to be the only time Callismon has ever been mentioned in the franchise outside of V-Tamers proper - on the card of it from the V-Tamers Expansion Board. That released in 2003, over a year after the one Minotaurmon (Adult) card, which released either in 2001 or 2002.
 

YongYoKyo

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It should be noted that the Adult-level card is a limited-edition promotional card for the Lotteria fast food franchise. The lack of evolution is more than likely not due to a lack of acknowledgement, but due to the lack of players that even have this card in the first place.
 

e105zeta

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I can’t believe it took 25 years to do the Perfect linking Musyamon and Zanbamon (who have always been stated to evolve from each other).

I’m starting to get annoyed at the amount of spider Digimon with no Ultimate.
 

CloneWarrior

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The other thing of note, besides the new Digimon, is that these DIMs potentially spoil what Digimon will appear in future episodes like RareRaremon and Manticoremon.

Not necessarily. WaruMonzaemon's the only existing Digimon present in any of the first three DiM cards to show up in the anime.
 
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