Digimon whose Level you would Change

[Ragnalord]

To me entmon seems Ultimate rather than perfect.

 

[Yamato-san]

In regards to Super Ultimates (and Level 7), I feel I've already said my piece in this earlier thread.

Digimon YOU Consider to be Super-Ultimate (Ultra)

Hey everyone! Super-Ultimate (or Ultra) is a super-tenuous categorisation that some iterations of the franchise ignore, and some embrace completely. I'm curious where people's line is for Super-Ultimates; do you only consider the two Digimon specifically named "Super Ultimate" to be of that...

withthewill.net

For the TL;DR, though, I highly question the decision to classify Omegamon and Millenniumon as Super Ultimates. Not just because, as brought up before, nobody seems to make any mention of Omegamon being one in V-Tamer (the very medium that birthed Super Ultimates as a concept), but both it and Millenniumon have even further evolutions.

I guess I'm kinda okay with the levels given to the Xros Wars Digiimon. Really, it's kinda hard to gauge their strength from the anime alone because this was clearly made at a point when Bandai just stopped giving a crap about evolution stages (I mean, Shoutmon could be seen going against a Mammon right off the bat, Neptunemon was only the second boss, and a Musyamon was one of the later bosses..... though I'm not too familiar with Super Xros Wars or the Xros Loader toy, so MAYBE each Digimon's strength from that era could be gleaned from there). That said, I do find it a bit off that about half of the Death Generals are Perfects (especially Gravimon, the one that actually prompted the debut of ShoutmonX7, though if they ever bring the Darkness Modes back, he at least could have a legitimate excuse to become Ultimate I'd imagine). The Beelzebumon Xroses being a lower stage than Beelzebumon himself, as well as Shoutmon+Dorulu Cannon being lower than Dorulumon, is also a bit off (though I could somewhat believe it since Shoutmon's still the base). And I think things are stuck this way, since I doubt any Whamon-like retcons are liable to happen in this day and age (the only reason the massive change with the Xros Wars Digimon could happen is because they never really had levels to begin with).

Hybrid Digimon are also a bit of an anamoly. Like Xros Wars, the anime didn't seem to care too much about levels (Agnimon could go from defeating a Cerberumon the first episode, to having trouble with some Candmon because LOL, you suck at type match-ups), but unlike Xros Wars, other media like the card game was still able to give any new debuts (aside from the Hybrids themselves) proper levels, so it wasn't quite as big of a mess. At any rate, the level-equivalents for each Hybrid still seems to be up in the air for the most part, but I just wanted to say that I don't particularly agree with Hacker's Memory making the Beast forms Perfect. Personally, I see Beast forms as more like equals to the Human forms. They seemingly have a bigger advantage in raw firepower, but are lacking in other areas (mobility? Dexterity?), so theoretically, having both Spirits should just provide a tactical advantage from having more options rather than Beasts being a straight upgrade of Humans. Same thing with Armors, really (does any media treat Lighdramon as a Perfect-equivalent nowadays?). But with all that said, I am glad that the new card game is making both Humans and Beasts be at Level 4. Also, Duskmon being a Child in one of the more recent V-pets...... just no. Seriously, if Human Hybrids were all Childs, where would that leave Flamon and Strabimon? BabyII?

Gusokumon to Ultimate/Mega. We already have another Crustacean for Ebidramon to evolve to - Anomalocarimon and him evolving to Gusokumon looks like an appropriate upgrade to me.

Numemon to Rookies/Children. Numemon and Scummon being the same level seems redundant. I'd much rather have a connected garbage line Numemon - Scummon - Gerbemon.

Monzaemon as an Adult/Champion. He can then digivolve into WaruMonzaemon, Etemon, Betsumon, or ExTyrannomon. We really need a good Puppet Adult for all these guys.

You can tell someone REALLY hasn't been doing their homework. Like, yes, Numemon and Sukamon fulfill similar roles, but that's because the original Digital Monster V-pet was pretty much a re-skinned copy/paste job with each new version. Might as well say that Greymon needs to evolve into DarkTyranomon. Also, Monzaemon was THE original powerhouse Digimon. He can't NOT be a Perfect, as he's too iconic to what Perfect Digimon were supposed to be in the first place (granted, the first Adventure anime did kinda screw him over by making him Togemon fodder).

Level VI did not exist when Metal and Big were made and most Mode Changes are functionally Slide Evolution where the the Digimon shift back and forth plus many are for Level VI Digimon anyway.

Didn't stop them retconning Herculeskabuterimon, hououmon, rosemon, magnadramon, jijimon, saberleomon, and machinedramon from ultimate to mega when mega came.

Actually, the first Digimon Pendulum was already out by the time Digimon World was released, so if anything, HeracleKabuterimon was momentarily retconned into a Perfect. I guess so far as the context of Digimon World is concerned, the Ultimate level did exist..... it just couldn't be properly represented because the game's system was largely based on the Digital Monster V-pets (same goes for Digital Card Battle..... and Digital Card Arena, despite being released all the way into the 02 era). That said, Mugendramon's level couldn't be seen in-game (at least not legitimately), plus Mugendramon was the final boss, so who's to say that it was a Perfect when it debuted?

 

[MickeyDee]

To me entmon seems Ultimate rather than perfect.

I agree. He could have been a great Ultimate for CherryTreemon.

 

[Chimera-gui]

That said, I do find it a bit off that about half of the Death Generals are Perfects (especially Gravimon, the one that actually prompted the debut of ShoutmonX7, though if they ever bring the Darkness Modes back, he at least could have a legitimate excuse to become Ultimate I'd imagine). The Beelzebumon Xroses being a lower stage than Beelzebumon himself, as well as Shoutmon+Dorulu Cannon being lower than Dorulumon, is also a bit off (though I could somewhat believe it since Shoutmon's still the base).

As I mentioned before in this very thread, Level is largely meant to be a unit of age rather than strength. While things get hazier once we get to Levels V and VI, it would make sense for Shoutmon + Dorulu Cannon to not be based on Dorulumon's Level since is Shoutmon is the base and none of the other weapon Xrosses raise the Levels of their wielders.

As for why Level IV Shoutmon X4 + Level VI Beelzemon = Level V Shoutmon X4B, it might follow the same logic as Level III Monodramon + Level VI Millenniumon = Level V Cyberdramon & Level III Shoutmon + Level VI Omegamon = Level V OmegaShoutmon. Plus Shoutmon X5B is Level VI so there's that at least.

Hybrid Digimon are also a bit of an anamoly. Like Xros Wars, the anime didn't seem to care too much about levels (Agnimon could go from defeating a Cerberumon the first episode, to having trouble with some Candmon because LOL, you suck at type match-ups), but unlike Xros Wars, other media like the card game was still able to give any new debuts (aside from the Hybrids themselves) proper levels, so it wasn't quite as big of a mess. At any rate, the level-equivalents for each Hybrid still seems to be up in the air for the most part, but I just wanted to say that I don't particularly agree with Hacker's Memory making the Beast forms Perfect. Personally, I see Beast forms as more like equals to the Human forms. They seemingly have a bigger advantage in raw firepower, but are lacking in other areas (mobility? Dexterity?), so theoretically, having both Spirits should just provide a tactical advantage from having more options rather than Beasts being a straight upgrade of Humans. Same thing with Armors, really (does any media treat Lighdramon as a Perfect-equivalent nowadays?). But with all that said, I am glad that the new card game is making both Humans and Beasts be at Level 4. Also, Duskmon being a Child in one of the more recent V-pets...... just no. Seriously, if Human Hybrids were all Childs, where would that leave Flamon and Strabimon? BabyII?

Chackmon is the only one that would make sense as Child given Tommy was the youngest of the group you're not the first to suggest something along these lines: Here

 

[shynely]

As for why Level IV Shoutmon X4 + Level VI Beelzemon = Level V Shoutmon X4B, it might follow the same logic as Level III Monodramon + Level VI Millenniumon = Level V Cyberdramon & Level III Shoutmon + Level VI Omegamon = Level V OmegaShoutmon. Plus Shoutmon X5B is Level VI so there's that at least.

If you're referring to Ryo's Monodramon, the Jogress just turned them into a Digi Egg and not directly into Cyberdramon.

 

[Chimera-gui]

If you're referring to Ryo's Monodramon, the Jogress just turned them into a Digi Egg and not directly into Cyberdramon.

Except it's heavily implied that said Digi-Egg hatched directly into Cyberdramon and the official comic that was meant to be based on the game where they Jogressed depicted it as follows:

 

[shynely]

The comic is an abridged retelling of multiple games' plots within a single digit number of pages. The writers' pitch linked on the same page points out that it's "greatly simplified" to fit, so it's not a great indicator of how things went.

I'm not sure what you mean by " implied that said Digi-Egg hatched directly into Cyberdramon". Can you point to an actual line or screenshot from the game or anything?

 

[Darklabo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

 

[YongYoKyo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

 

[Muur]

Make MetalPhantomon a Mega. D-Cyber even basically treated it as a Mega considering it was the main antagonist.

 

[Darklabo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

Good thing the different Digimon medias are canon, so the Super Ultimate Level being acknowledged by the DRB is anything but needed to be considered a Level in the overall series.

Sure, they can update the DRB, but even if they don’t do it, that doesn’t really matter. In the same way Mugendramon isn’t the strongest Digimon anymore despite the DRB saying otherwise.

 

[Muur]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

Good thing the different Digimon medias are canon, so the Super Ultimate Level being acknowledged by the DRB is anything but needed to be considered a Level in the overall series.

Sure, they can update the DRB, but even if they don’t do it, that doesn’t really matter. In the same way Mugendramon isn’t the strongest Digimon anymore despite the DRB saying otherwise.

Yeah a lot of people take the DRB way too seriously and decide that anything it says goes.

 

[YongYoKyo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

Good thing the different Digimon medias are canon, so the Super Ultimate Level being acknowledged by the DRB is anything but needed to be considered a Level in the overall series.

Sure, they can update the DRB, but even if they don’t do it, that doesn’t really matter. In the same way Mugendramon isn’t the strongest Digimon anymore despite the DRB saying otherwise.

It technically never acknowledges it as a level. As again, it's not stated so in the Level section of the profile. The Super isn't a proper name either (as Japanese doesn't use capitalization, and it's not in parentheses), so it could be interpreted as just a "super" Ultimate.

The situation with Mugendramon is different. You're talking about the narrative lore part of the profile, not the categorical statistical part. In fact, Armagemon's Super Ultimate title falls under the narrative part of the profile as well.

 

[Darklabo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

Good thing the different Digimon medias are canon, so the Super Ultimate Level being acknowledged by the DRB is anything but needed to be considered a Level in the overall series.

Sure, they can update the DRB, but even if they don’t do it, that doesn’t really matter. In the same way Mugendramon isn’t the strongest Digimon anymore despite the DRB saying otherwise.

It technically never acknowledges it as a level. It only says Super Ultimate, not Super Ultimate-level. The Super isn't a proper name either (as Japanese doesn't use capitalization, and it's not in parentheses), so it could be interpreted as just a "super" Ultimate.

The situation with Mugendramon is different. You're talking about the narrative lore part of the profile, not the categorical statistical part. In fact, Armagemon's Super Ultimate title falls under the narrative part of the profile as well.

Cyber-Sleuth and ReArise treat it as a Level, it’s a direct evolution of an Ultimate Level and the word « title » doesn’t appear anywhere in those medias, not even in V-Tamer. So, except if you have a very good evidence that Super-Ultimate isn’t a level, it is.

It doesn’t matter if it is the « narrative » or the « statistical » part of the profile, the DRB being outdated is a reality. There no logical reason to consider the DRB being more accurate than others medias more recent and coherent with each others.
Again, the DRB isn’t even relevant in this case, the Super-Ultimate Level exist whether it acknowledges it or not.
The DRB’s main purpose is to try to explain the Digimon canon, not the opposite.

 

[TMS]

It’s a “level” in the context of Cyber Sleuth, but even then it makes no functional difference, only applying to some Digimon that evolve from Ultimates, not all of them. To me this only confirms that it’s not a standard level, but just bragging rights and nothing more.

 

[YongYoKyo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

Good thing the different Digimon medias are canon, so the Super Ultimate Level being acknowledged by the DRB is anything but needed to be considered a Level in the overall series.

Sure, they can update the DRB, but even if they don’t do it, that doesn’t really matter. In the same way Mugendramon isn’t the strongest Digimon anymore despite the DRB saying otherwise.

It technically never acknowledges it as a level. It only says Super Ultimate, not Super Ultimate-level. The Super isn't a proper name either (as Japanese doesn't use capitalization, and it's not in parentheses), so it could be interpreted as just a "super" Ultimate.

The situation with Mugendramon is different. You're talking about the narrative lore part of the profile, not the categorical statistical part. In fact, Armagemon's Super Ultimate title falls under the narrative part of the profile as well.

Cyber-Sleuth and ReArise treat it as a Level, it’s a direct evolution of an Ultimate Level and the word « title » doesn’t appear anywhere in those medias, not even in V-Tamer. So, except if you have a very good evidence that Super-Ultimate isn’t a level, it is.

It doesn’t matter if it is the « narrative » or the « statistical » part of the profile, the DRB being outdated is a reality. There no logical reason to consider the DRB being more accurate than others medias more recent and coherent with each others.
Again, the DRB isn’t even relevant in this case, the Super-Ultimate Level exist whether it acknowledges it or not.
The DRB’s main purpose is to try to explain the Digimon canon, not the opposite.

In V-Tamer, it literally is a title because it originally referred to a single particular Digimon (Arkadimon). Daemon's profile (also in reference to V-Tamer) also refers to Super Ultimate as an individual, specifically the strongest Ultimate among all other Ultimates.

The distinction between narrative and categorical parts of the profile is important. The narrative is usually based on that specific Digimon's debut media. It's not that it's outdated, but that it's specific to a particular media (though said media itself could be outdated). Likewise, the gameplay-categorizations of ReArise and Cyber Sleuth are specific to their respective media.

In contrast, the categorical part of the DRB is meant to be universally relevant. Barring some gameplay/mechanical exceptions, Mugendramon will always be a Machine-type Ultimate-level Virus-attribute Digimon in nearly every media, including future ones.


They literally just released a recent Profile Report that acknowledges the distinction between Jogress (that doesn't increase in level) and Jogress Evolution (that increases in level), and all of the examples of the former are those that are classified as Super Ultimate in ReArise/Cyber Sleuth.

 

[Muur]

It’s a “level” in the context of Cyber Sleuth, but even then it makes no functional difference, only applying to some Digimon that evolve from Ultimates, not all of them. To me this only confirms that it’s not a standard level, but just bragging rights and nothing more.

Well you can say the same for the DRB and others. MetalMamemon's and CatchMamemon's profiles say they digivovled from a Mamemon, and yet their levels remain the same. So digivolving doesn't always increase your level, so a Mega evolving to anotehr Mega instead of an Ultra is nothing new when an Ultiamte can evolve to another Ultimate (or with the newest addition, BlackGatomon evolving to BlackGatomon Uver and remaining the same level).

 

[Darklabo]

There's also the issue that "Level VII" is canonically not a true Level but a subsection of Level VI.

why do people say this? Isn't a Lv. 7 outright stated in v-tamer, used in a lot of video games, and heavily used in our currently ongoing card game? Shouldn't it just be treated like Xros fusions, card slashes, digisoul, etc. where it's not universal to every universe but exists in some universes thus making the "not canon" argument empty as there isn't one singular overarching "canon" to base that argument off of?

The issue with V-Tamer (which is also the origin of Super Ultimate-level, and thus should be the most authoritative source)

The most authoritative source is the most recent one, not the one which introduced a concept.
So, for the Super-Ultimate Level, the most relevant source is ReArise.

is that it's acknowledged that simply (Jogress-)evolving from an Ultimate is not enough to be a Super Ultimate, as Omegamon is explicitly still just an Ultimate-level. In the setting of V-Tamer, Arkadimon is the one and only Super Ultimate (until Daemon absorbs Arkadimon, and UlforceV-dramon achieves Future Mode).

And like said before, Holydramon, Mugendramon, HerculesKabuterimon and some others were all Perfect at their debut, but now nobody would argue they aren’t Ultimate.
So even if Omegamon was a regular Ultimate in V-Tamer, it has been retconned as a Super-Ultimate Level since at least Cyber-Sleuth.

 

[YongYoKyo]

There's also the issue that "Level VII" is canonically not a true Level but a subsection of Level VI.

why do people say this? Isn't a Lv. 7 outright stated in v-tamer, used in a lot of video games, and heavily used in our currently ongoing card game? Shouldn't it just be treated like Xros fusions, card slashes, digisoul, etc. where it's not universal to every universe but exists in some universes thus making the "not canon" argument empty as there isn't one singular overarching "canon" to base that argument off of?

The issue with V-Tamer (which is also the origin of Super Ultimate-level, and thus should be the most authoritative source)

The most authoritative source is the most recent one, not the one which introduced a concept.
So, for the Super-Ultimate Level, the most relevant source is ReArise.

is that it's acknowledged that simply (Jogress-)evolving from an Ultimate is not enough to be a Super Ultimate, as Omegamon is explicitly still just an Ultimate-level. In the setting of V-Tamer, Arkadimon is the one and only Super Ultimate (until Daemon absorbs Arkadimon, and UlforceV-dramon achieves Future Mode).

And like said before, Holydramon, Mugendramon, HerculesKabuterimon and some others were all Perfect at their debut, but now nobody would argue they aren’t Ultimate.
So even if Omegamon was a regular Ultimate in V-Tamer, it has been retconned as a Super-Ultimate Level since at least Cyber-Sleuth.

As I said in my last post, barring gameplay/mechanical exceptions.

Also, if you're saying the most recent source is the most authoritative, then again, I point to the recent Profile Report that doesn't acknowledge that they're higher in level.

 

[Darklabo]

Plus the only Digimon referred to as Super Ultimate in the Field Guide, Armageddemon, is still listed as Level VI.

If anything, it’s another proof that the Super-Ultimate Level is canon, and that the power-ranking system of the Digimon Reference Book is just outdated.

That's not how proof works. The evidence is that while Super Ultimate is acknowledged narratively as a title, it's not acknowledged as a proper level in the existing level system of the DRB (and still hasn't been acknowledged to this day).

If they wanted to update the DRB, they can do so, as shown by the major Xros Wars update. They also do silent minor updates on certain profiles.

Good thing the different Digimon medias are canon, so the Super Ultimate Level being acknowledged by the DRB is anything but needed to be considered a Level in the overall series.

Sure, they can update the DRB, but even if they don’t do it, that doesn’t really matter. In the same way Mugendramon isn’t the strongest Digimon anymore despite the DRB saying otherwise.

It technically never acknowledges it as a level. It only says Super Ultimate, not Super Ultimate-level. The Super isn't a proper name either (as Japanese doesn't use capitalization, and it's not in parentheses), so it could be interpreted as just a "super" Ultimate.

The situation with Mugendramon is different. You're talking about the narrative lore part of the profile, not the categorical statistical part. In fact, Armagemon's Super Ultimate title falls under the narrative part of the profile as well.

Cyber-Sleuth and ReArise treat it as a Level, it’s a direct evolution of an Ultimate Level and the word « title » doesn’t appear anywhere in those medias, not even in V-Tamer. So, except if you have a very good evidence that Super-Ultimate isn’t a level, it is.

It doesn’t matter if it is the « narrative » or the « statistical » part of the profile, the DRB being outdated is a reality. There no logical reason to consider the DRB being more accurate than others medias more recent and coherent with each others.
Again, the DRB isn’t even relevant in this case, the Super-Ultimate Level exist whether it acknowledges it or not.
The DRB’s main purpose is to try to explain the Digimon canon, not the opposite.

In V-Tamer, it literally is a title because it originally referred to a single particular Digimon (Arkadimon). Daemon's profile (also in reference to V-Tamer) also refers to Super Ultimate as an individual, specifically the strongest Ultimate among all other Ultimates.

V-Tamer itself prove that Super-Ultimate is a Level and not a title by having three Digimon who attain this specific form.
It can be considered a title at the beginning of the manga (even if it’s never called like that) but it’s definitely not at the end.

The distinction between narrative and categorical parts of the profile is important. The narrative is usually based on that specific Digimon's debut media. It's not that it's outdated, but that it's specific to a particular media (though said media itself could be outdated). Likewise, the gameplay-categorizations of ReArise and Cyber Sleuth are specific to their respective media.

There no distinction. « Narrative » « and « Categorical » are both parts of the DRB, if one is wrong, the entire profile is wrong.
You’re just trying to make a distinction which doesn’t exist in the first place

In contrast, the categorical part of the DRB is meant to be universally relevant. Barring some gameplay/mechanical exceptions, Mugendramon will always be a Machine-type Ultimate-level Virus-attribute Digimon in nearly every media, including future ones.

Again, there no distinction.
Mugendramon being called the strongest Digimon is outdated, like the categorical part of the DRB is outdated, and so irrelevant, by not acknowledging the existence of the Super-Ultimate Level in the canon of the series.

They literally just released a recent Profile Report that acknowledges the distinction between Jogress (that doesn't increase in level) and Jogress Evolution (that increases in level), and all of the examples of the former are those that are classified as Super Ultimate in ReArise/Cyber Sleuth.

And they just updated ReArise and Omegamon and alike were still Super-Ultimate Levels, and I’m pretty sure the next update will not change a thing.
Again, whatever if the DRB recognize the existence of the SU-Level or not, the overall canon doesn’t need it.