Digimon Adventure: Episode 13- Garudamon of the Crimson Wings

Golden_Fate

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Maybe people would like the series better if they didn't keep comparing it to the orignal.
Likely. I think allot of the complaints (not all, but allot) I'm hearing have to do with the rules of the original series. Crests, for example, are not really a thing so far in the new series' despite appearing on the digivice display so I think there's some guessing to say that courage, love, friendship or purity caused the evolution's thus far. But even if you do compare to the original, at this point they were only just beating Devimon and they hadn't experienced allot of the character development yet so there's still time for all that.
 

AguChamp

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You run into the problem with the original show's Perfect evolutions for characters like Jou, Mimi, and Takeru who's traits were shown off much better in earlier episodes.
The thing about Jou, Mimi, and Takeru in the original is that their Ultimate evolutions are the result of trials that actually impact their thinking and cloud their judgment. It's a more satisfying confirmation of their base traits. Even in the face of danger, or in Mimi's case a massive lapse in morals and kindness, the characters are put in emotionally straining situations.

None of the cast so far, except for, to a lesser extent, Mimi, have had that same struggle or setup.

As I've mentioned in a few places today. Maybe people would like the series better if they didn't keep comparing it to the orignal.
I've said this elsewhere, but Toei clearly shows reliance on themes and elements from the original. The entire 3rd episode was a purposeful Our War Game homage, and a very lackluster one at that.

It's not far-fetched to compare themes that clearly aren't being handled as well, and are lacking even stand alone.
Interesting characters and fulfilling emotional setup and payoff isn't just a nostalgic aesthetic of OG Adventure, it's just good writing.
 

Nemomon

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I am not liking Joe as he currently is. I hope he developes better.
At the very least he literally has balls of steel ;)
 
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Firerockbird

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I feel that this episode would work better if it was divided into two parts or if it took place entirely in the cannonbeemon, although weregarurumon did not spoil the appearance of garudamon I still feel that she was not in itself impactful, Joe as always being an irrelevant character and the way things are going I will be indignant to see him win a zudomon for "grace" considering that "reliability" is not his strong feeling in this reboot (this joe would never do half the things that OG joe would do, like going up unimon mountain or trying to face megaseadramon alone, this joe is nothing but a bad parody of the original joe, i may not like joe's tri version but even he is more consistent with the character than the reboot)
I will not lie, the desire to drop this anime is getting stronger with each new episode, I am starting to admire even more the OG Digimon adventure for the wrong reasons, this reboot was to make me compare both animes but not in the sense of making a being superior to the other but in the sense of seeing how they work different ideas in the best possible way and admiring both for being similar but different, but no, I know it is wrong to compare the reboot with the original but... the original does so many better things that the reboot that would be better for me simply re-launch adventure 1 with the remastered or improved episodes, so it would be something less "offensive" to me.

As I've mentioned in a few places today. Maybe people would like the series better if they didn't keep comparing it to the orignal.
this is almost inevitable, I understand the point of not comparing with the original so as not to belittle the changes of the reboot but even if we don't do that the reboot is still a weak "Digimon anime" compared to the others so far due to weird decisions (like rushing the ultimate Digi-evolution) and for not developing the characters properly.
 
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Ricardolindo

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I don't have much to say about this episode. I think it was good, albeit not as much as the previous one. Like others, I believe they should have done the evolution better. Also, I think the end of the episode was too abrupt.
 

Mattman324

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I think it is because Adventure 2020 will have 60 episodes that they wouldn't show so much about the characters in Episode 13.
The problem is that they're rushing the power ups that come from the character development to Episode 13 of 66. Of course we're going to complain that things feel unnatural when they're doing the effect before the cause.

Maybe people would like the series better if they didn't keep comparing it to the orignal.
It's pretty hard to not compare this series to the original when the series is constantly plastered over by imagery and characters taken from the original. If this were its own series with all new characters using Digimon that weren't the original series Digimon people would definitely probably think it was better - but it isn't, so I'm not going to.

(I don't think I'd call this series good even if they didn't though. It's mediocre so far, episode 12 aside.)
 

Mihael

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If it were to summarize this episode in one sentence would be, "Matt's episode that worked", that's because from the beginning of the series Sora was shown as the loving mother of the group, which made it extremely easy for me to buy the idea that she evolved to make the efforts of his friends not be in vain, different from Matt where that power of Friendship only sound forced, Anyway, I didn't think it was as good as Mimi's but it was still a good episode.

Something I loved in this episode was the exploration of the inner structure of Cannonbeemon, I loved how it was adapted the idea of it being a mobile hive fortress, besides this if I'm not mistaken to be the first appearance of Waspmon, Funbeemon and Cannonbeemon in an Anime.

Next episode will be that of Atlur Kabuterimon, I'm very curious how they will develop this evolution, in the classic had all that issue of Izzy giving up his knowledge to vademon, and had that beautiful scene of Tentomon returning to be a Pabumon, which made him for me to be one of the most striking episodes of the classic, Izzy by itself always had remarkable scenes throughout the franchise as the Hercules Kabuterimon in Tri, i really hope it's an episode worthy of my favorite digidestined
 
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taz111

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Cool episode. Not a huge Sora fan or Garudamon fan. Highlight was Weregarurumon's evo and that they continue to really highlight the digimon's abilities and not do one hit k.o. stock shots like the original series did.

I'm assuming as the series progresses the kids will get an explanation of their crest and how it ties in with their digimon's evolutions.
 

HawkG

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The thing about Jou, Mimi, and Takeru in the original is that their Ultimate evolutions are the result of trials that actually impact their thinking and cloud their judgment. It's a more satisfying confirmation of their base traits. Even in the face of danger, or in Mimi's case a massive lapse in morals and kindness, the characters are put in emotionally straining situations.

None of the cast so far, except for, to a lesser extent, Mimi, have had that same struggle or setup.
I think the actual evolution episodes in the original are way more contrived and have less setup than people give them credit for. All of them a pretty self contained with only Yamato and Koushiro's bringing in past character writing to pull off the evolution itself.

What is the difference between Jou saving Takeru form Veggiemon and saving Takeru from drowning? Zudomon needs to show up in the second one. Takeru had a bunch of nice episodes that showed off his crest but HolyAngemon only shows up near the end because thats how his evolution work. And the greatest question of all time, "why didn't Liliymon show up at Gekomon's castle?"

I think Taichi is the biggest offender of how they wrote the original Perfect episodes. He has so much build up to MetalGreymon but they needed a new reason to get his crest to glow in those two episodes so they give him a sudden existential crisis. He doesn't think about SkullGreymon or the bike and the show doesn't remind you of if. I'm not saying that those things don't work into the evolution but fact that it needed a such an arbitrary reason to make it happen, makes the episodes feel disconnected from the others.

I've never really bought into the idea of characters "earning" their evolution and when I think about it under that lens the writing feels off in most series. Sure characters have struggles but most of the time there is this disconnect from the evolution itself that always bothers me. Sure you can have the argument of if these evolutions are coming too early but I don't think it's fair to compare the character writing of episodes in their teens to ones in their twenties and also ones that had already finished their establishing first arc.
 

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Maybe I'll finally be able to tell Waspmon and Cannonbeemon apart now, their designs are always a little too similar for me to pay attention to which one is which.

More progress on the miasma front, initially, but then it stalled; I think the implication was that they were turning the FanBeemon into Waspmon via the miasma? And they made it a point not to show them killing the Waspmon, usually. But then there were just a bunch of explosions and the episode was over. I do wish we'd get a little more of a concrete explanation there...

Not entirely sure how I felt about Garudamon's evolution. Obviously it was going to happen, but the "B Team" thus far haven't felt as earned. I thought maybe at first Birdramon was going to try lifting the container and not have enough strength to do so, but much like Matt from two episodes ago they just kind of... looked at their opponent and felt inspired enough to do so. Not a real sense of stakes.

But the moment with Sora and the FanBeemon from earlier was nice. And Tai threatening to karate chop Izzy's keyboard was... well, classic Tai, but in a welcome way. I'm curious to know what's up with Izzy's laptop. I had kind of hoped Mimi would secretly be a genius and be able to repair it, but oh well.

The evolution sequences were very good. WereGarurumon's was top-notch, and I hope that Birdramon and Garudamon's can maintain that level of consistency because that was the best they've gotten.
 

Kon

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I think the actual evolution episodes in the original are way more contrived and have less setup than people give them credit for. All of them a pretty self contained with only Yamato and Koushiro's bringing in past character writing to pull off the evolution itself.

What is the difference between Jou saving Takeru form Veggiemon and saving Takeru from drowning? Zudomon needs to show up in the second one. Takeru had a bunch of nice episodes that showed off his crest but HolyAngemon only shows up near the end because thats how his evolution work. And the greatest question of all time, "why didn't Liliymon show up at Gekomon's castle?"

I think Taichi is the biggest offender of how they wrote the original Perfect episodes. He has so much build up to MetalGreymon but they needed a new reason to get his crest to glow in those two episodes so they give him a sudden existential crisis. He doesn't think about SkullGreymon or the bike and the show doesn't remind you of if. I'm not saying that those things don't work into the evolution but fact that it needed a such an arbitrary reason to make it happen, makes the episodes feel disconnected from the others.

I've never really bought into the idea of characters "earning" their evolution and when I think about it under that lens the writing feels off in most series. Sure characters have struggles but most of the time there is this disconnect from the evolution itself that always bothers me. Sure you can have the argument of if these evolutions are coming too early but I don't think it's fair to compare the character writing of episodes in their teens to ones in their twenties and also ones that had already finished their establishing first arc.
My theory was always that the Perfect level will only be reached when the crest glow, but the Digimon partner needs to be in the Adult level at that moment.

In the Episode of Gekomon's castle, Mimi's crest glow at some moment, but Togemon wasn't there.
 

e105zeta

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Maybe people would like the series better if they didn't keep comparing it to the orignal.
Im of the opposite mind, I think the series only works in context of the original given how little we know these characters after 13 episodes. 13 is the length of some entire anime and these six kids are mostly still blank slates.

The only way you can really stay invested is to assume they’re still mostly the same people from 20 years ago. Without that context, there’d be very little reason to stay invested in these “characters” except for the character designs.
 

Setsuna1611

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A fine episode I suppose, I liked the Canonbeemon enemy.
I feel like I haven't had issues understanding why Lilimon and Garudamon were needed over their other evolution choices. The Funbeemon were also very cute, so I thought they were a great supporting character for this episode.

I have to say, I really don't like Jou this time around. Not that I liked him that much my first time watching the dub either. He's kind of like this perpetual grey cloud following the group with negativity. His voice actor isn't that likeable to me either, especially when he was screaming for help.
Sora and Yamato made for great partners though. I also really loved Gomamon escaping from his cell on his wave of marching fishes, who just poofed away after! I liked that touch.

As for the evolution to Garudamon, this line has not had my favorite evolution sequences. Garudamon is super cool but I do miss the character development that came from this evolution in the original. There's still a chunk of the series left to dig into so I'm hoping there's still room for some more character bits, so far everyone's coming off a little flat in terms of character Mimi is the only character thus far who is getting much of her home life brought up, surely her grandfather will be playing a bigger role in the future.
It look like GP03 dendrobium for me :ROFLMAO:
 

Guilmon

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I think it is because Adventure 2020 will have 60 episodes that they wouldn't show so much about the characters in Episode 13.
I'd argue the contrary: it's because we're in episode 13 that these characters should've been fleshed out way more already. If a series is gonna have a high episode count, then they better make me care and want to root for the characters from the very beginning.

Heck, episode count doesn't matter. Whether it's a short, seasonal show, or a long-running epic, you gotta make me care from as soon as episode 1.

But so far I'm not really sure if I want to follow these kids on their journey.

As I've mentioned in a few places today. Maybe people would like the series better if they didn't keep comparing it to the orignal.
It's annoying when people want sequels/reboots/spinoffs to be exactly like the original, as they are simply letting their nostalgia cloud their judgement and they don't open themselves to fun, new stories.

But at least from what I've read in this episode discussion, people aren't doing that. They're simply commenting on this show's weak writing, and pointing out the original as a reference for good writing (*). It's not so much "I wish this had happened just like it did in Adventure," but rather "I wish this moment was actually impactful, like in Adventure."

(*) Mind you, it's been so long since I've watched the original that I have little to no memory of it, so I can't personally comment on its quality. But I can definitely say that Digimon Adventure (2020) has little to nothing going for it.
 

AguChamp

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The thing about Jou, Mimi, and Takeru in the original is that their Ultimate evolutions are the result of trials that actually impact their thinking and cloud their judgment. It's a more satisfying confirmation of their base traits. Even in the face of danger, or in Mimi's case a massive lapse in morals and kindness, the characters are put in emotionally straining situations.

None of the cast so far, except for, to a lesser extent, Mimi, have had that same struggle or setup.
I think the actual evolution episodes in the original are way more contrived and have less setup than people give them credit for. All of them a pretty self contained with only Yamato and Koushiro's bringing in past character writing to pull off the evolution itself.

What is the difference between Jou saving Takeru form Veggiemon and saving Takeru from drowning? Zudomon needs to show up in the second one. Takeru had a bunch of nice episodes that showed off his crest but HolyAngemon only shows up near the end because thats how his evolution work. And the greatest question of all time, "why didn't Liliymon show up at Gekomon's castle?"

I think Taichi is the biggest offender of how they wrote the original Perfect episodes. He has so much build up to MetalGreymon but they needed a new reason to get his crest to glow in those two episodes so they give him a sudden existential crisis. He doesn't think about SkullGreymon or the bike and the show doesn't remind you of if. I'm not saying that those things don't work into the evolution but fact that it needed a such an arbitrary reason to make it happen, makes the episodes feel disconnected from the others.

I've never really bought into the idea of characters "earning" their evolution and when I think about it under that lens the writing feels off in most series. Sure characters have struggles but most of the time there is this disconnect from the evolution itself that always bothers me. Sure you can have the argument of if these evolutions are coming too early but I don't think it's fair to compare the character writing of episodes in their teens to ones in their twenties and also ones that had already finished their establishing first arc.
Adventure tended to have sudden episodes focusing on certain characters, and in particular Joe has always struggled with the amount of screentime he gets.
But I definitely wouldn't agree that all the arcs feel self contained.

Tai doesn't get a sudden crisis. He finally realizes how much of a reckless jerk he's been up until that point, and it ties into his greater issue of feeling responsible for neglecting Kari's well being. This extends even further to how he acts around TK, to his turmoil when Kari gets sick again in the Digital World.

Mimi likely doesn't evolve earlier for arbitrary reasons, but I think alongside the idea that Togemon wasn't there, the Gekomon wasn't as personal as being at a center full of kidnapped kids and having her parents be in danger. Mimi always had spoiled tendencies in the series, and once again, the Dark Masters arc furthers that sympathy through her and Joe's little adventure.

Joe and TK were trapped in a massive lake, close to drowning. Joe's perseverance in that state was notable, especially given that he had the stress of watching over TK. Again, that loyalty is pushed further with him protecting Mimi later.

Late evolution has always been consistent with TK. Furthermore, it's evolution when all seems hopeless. Evolving against Devimon when the whole team is powerless to stop him, evolving to MagnaAngemon when 6/8 of the team is incapacitated, and you're falling to your death against an extremely powerful Mega Digimon.

(I would also argue that Izzy's crest activation wasn't that great.)

I generally argue that it isn't wrong to debate these aspects. At the exact same age, the OG Adventure kids went through stronger setup and payoff, and had stronger personalities.
The current team just isn't nearly as developed, flawed, or interesting.
And that's an inherent problem when the concept of Ultimate evolution being a pinnacle achievement has been a consistent theme from the original V-Pet, all the way to Appmon.
Comparing this season to OG Adventure is just an easier way of showing how the show as a whole has failed.
 

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Yeah, I agree that most people don't want this show to just copy and paste the original Adventure, but it's the easiest thing to compare this show to. I don't think Adventure, or any other Digimon show for that matter, are flawless sacred cows. However, most other Digimon shows are solidly made and have stories and characters that stick with me to this day. Colon feels like it will be quickly forgotten, and probably not attract many of the younger fans I was hoping for.
 

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It's still weird to compare episode 13 of this series to 26 of the original. Of course, Garudamon's debut doesn't come with as much development for Sora, this series actually has Hououmon to show off instead of capping off at Garudamon, and we're only at the halfway point for that exact evolution. The original series featured very flat characters up to the SkullGreymon episode, which kick started the first character arc with Tai's. With how slow the original series was, you'd think the one thing people would be while watching this series is patient lol.
 

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Pretty meh episode tbh. I guess it's because of Sora's crest being a very generic thing and broad concept but the Garudamon moment felt so... I wouldn't say hollow but I don't feel it's anything different than some of the willingness she showed before.

As others have pointed out, the entire base thing was weird. WereGarurumon could easily dismantle the base from the inside out by himself, but the animation of the abse actually falling was cool.

Taichi's shtick of wanting to hit the laptop/tablet was cool, especially with Agumon joining in on it. It's one of the things I wish I saw more in this iteration of Taichi. This one just feels to generically shounen protagonist to me. Thus far, I only like Mimi and Jou's characterization but the rest... feels hollow, to say the least. (Even though, Gomamon gets a pass. Gomamon has been enjoyable.)
 

HawkG

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Adventure tended to have sudden episodes focusing on certain characters, and in particular Joe has always struggled with the amount of screentime he gets.
But I definitely wouldn't agree that all the arcs feel self contained.

Tai doesn't get a sudden crisis. He finally realizes how much of a reckless jerk he's been up until that point, and it ties into his greater issue of feeling responsible for neglecting Kari's well being. This extends even further to how he acts around TK, to his turmoil when Kari gets sick again in the Digital World.

Mimi likely doesn't evolve earlier for arbitrary reasons, but I think alongside the idea that Togemon wasn't there, the Gekomon wasn't as personal as being at a center full of kidnapped kids and having her parents be in danger. Mimi always had spoiled tendencies in the series, and once again, the Dark Masters arc furthers that sympathy through her and Joe's little adventure.

Joe and TK were trapped in a massive lake, close to drowning. Joe's perseverance in that state was notable, especially given that he had the stress of watching over TK. Again, that loyalty is pushed further with him protecting Mimi later.

Late evolution has always been consistent with TK. Furthermore, it's evolution when all seems hopeless. Evolving against Devimon when the whole team is powerless to stop him, evolving to MagnaAngemon when 6/8 of the team is incapacitated, and you're falling to your death against an extremely powerful Mega Digimon.

(I would also argue that Izzy's crest activation wasn't that great.)

I generally argue that it isn't wrong to debate these aspects. At the exact same age, the OG Adventure kids went through stronger setup and payoff, and had stronger personalities.
The current team just isn't nearly as developed, flawed, or interesting.
And that's an inherent problem when the concept of Ultimate evolution being a pinnacle achievement has been a consistent theme from the original V-Pet, all the way to Appmon.
Comparing this season to OG Adventure is just an easier way of showing how the show as a whole has failed.
I still disagree with all of counter points about the kids evolution episodes (and only their evolution episodes) but to get to the real meat of everything, I think your comparisons are mostly unfair. Every counter point you made, you immediately fallowed up with things that happen later into the original series. Your comparisons are putting the weight of 54 episodes on the back of a series that is just at 13 and that's clearly not fair. You can compare the specific evolution episodes, you can compare how the narrative implements and hold up Perfects, but you can't expect the same amount of character writing from a show that isn't running at the same pace.

Other than the introduction episodes, characters are still keeping pace with how they were portrayed in the original Devimon arc. Perfects or not these are still establishing episodes. Dose Sora have a little less bite, sure but everyone is more competent so she gets to act out on her own more. Is Mimi less selfish, yes but she more outgoing and helpful. Koushiro isn't in his own head as much because he doesn't have the time to be, yet that interest in the world around him is still there. Comparisons can still be made but they need to be made within reason.
 
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