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Thread: Digimon Channel: Pics and Translation Thread

  1. #2131
    I come from the net Lhikan634's Avatar
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    If you really wanted to avoid pronouns, you could use "this Digimon" or use the Digimon's name (or turn all of the profile plural to define a species…). If official local profiles already use the pronoun 'it' then that makes sense to use. I mean, think about it: Digimon are technically sentient, even sapient, AI. But as English only (consistently) assigns gender to sexually-reproducing organisms, gendered pronouns seem a bit off. Though, even then, there are species that use other systems than the standard male-female dichotomy.

    If we had a better gender-neutral pronoun that were of more positive-personal connotation, this would solve many a matter. All in favor of ratifying a new English pronoun, sey (obj. sem, pos. seirs, refl. semself), say "aye"!

  2. #2132
    Quote Originally Posted by Inpu View Post
    If the official material is already doing a good job of being inclusive, there's no need to dilute that.
    What does that have to do with being inclusive? Where does inclusivity even come into it? We're talking about grammar and natural language.

    Other official material has been happy to use "he" "she" and "they", so the fact you can cherry-pick a couple games doesn't really determine anything, especially when your example is a fine example of a poor and over-literal translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garmmon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
    "He" is a perfectly acceptable gender-neutral pronoun in English (in the absence of other information specifying gender), and if you don't like it, you always have the singular "they" which is a little weird but much less weird than "it."
    As I mentioned on Wikimon, I disagree with the usage of 'he' as a gender-neutral term; it's definitely not wrong to use it as gender-neutral and it's been used before, but especially in recent times with the resurgence of 'they' as the main gender-neutral term, more people seem to find it offensive/controversial to use 'he' as gender-neutral so I think there's a stronger gender connotation to it now. Even if you decide to use he/she, on what grounds would you decide which Digimon is a he or she? Obvious ones like Fairymon aside, you get Digimon like Piyomon that have been implied to be male and female before.
    Sure, I think it is reasonable to quibble about he versus they, and I don't have a problem with the latter as long as you care careful to avoid strange constructions.

    As for your latter question - you use "she" only for the obvious ones. "He" only sounds dumb when there is some major context clue that the subject is definitely not of indeterminate or male gender. If there is doubt (as with Piyomon), he is fine.

    I would also say that if we can rewrite a sentence so that it sounds better and doesn't have any pronouns at all, so much the better. For example, the awful profile Inpu quoted could go from:

    A form of Gatomon that lives in darkness. It is a Digimon of true evil that walks the eerie dark.

    to

    This form of Gatomon lives in darkness. A truly evil Digimon that walks the eerie dark.

    And we have to be careful about changing the meaning of the sentence, but the repetition of "dark" doesn't sound right. A native speaker who had never seen the Japanese construction of the profile would write the same idea as:

    A truly evil form of Gatomon that lives and walks in the eerie dark!

    I don't find 'it' sounding very strange in English at all (I mean it is grammatically correct),
    It is not grammatically correct, that's the problem. I suppose it is syntactically correct, but you can't use "it" to refer to most Digimon grammatically.

    I have to disagree with this statement as well, as most of the Japanese profiles don't even use pronouns, let alone gendered/gender-neutral pronouns, so there is no pronoun to literally translate from. It's just a case of us inserting a pronoun we feel is most appropriate, which seems to be 'it' in a lot of people's cases.
    Yes, the pronoun is not there in Japanese, but the choice of pronoun in the translation is symptomatic of the style of overly literal translations.
    Last edited by Shining Celebi; 09-03-2016 at 09:42 AM.

  3. #2133
    I come from the net Garmmon's Avatar
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    Ah you're right that it's syntactically correct..I was reading a book about a bunch of these terms the other day so I probably mixed them up.

    I still stand by my preference of 'it' though with my reasons in the previous post, and Lhikan does have a point I think is very valid; despite being sapient and capable of thought, Digimon are technically still AI/ programs, and it would make sense to refer to them as an 'it' in this case.
    For example if I created a program that could think, have feelings, and was made specifically to exhibit female mannerisms, I would still refer to it as an 'it', because I just don't see the program as a human or human-equal/equal to me. Though that's my opinion, I'm not sure what others would do?

    In any case, I feel that the grammaticality of 'it' can be argued by labelling Digimon as monsters, programs, etc, so it's not as if it is 100% wrong to refer to Digimon as 'it', it comes down to a matter of perspective since Digimon aren't even real-life beings. It can't be 'sounding very strange in English' if so few people have objected to it before (unless I'm not aware), and a fair number of people here are actually fighting for it.

    About the removal of pronouns, I haven't actually tried it so I can't say how it'll work out, but some of the longer profiles might feel weird in English without any pronouns for the whole length of it..

  4. #2134
    I come from the net Lhikan634's Avatar
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    Well, using the recent profile, here's an example of how that could look (along with a few other grammatical corrections). Note that translations really should be put into the appropriate grammar of the second language to convey the same ideas instead of remaining in the original grammatical structure.

    BlackTailmon
    This Virus-attributed Tailmon has pitch-black fur that makes a strong impression1. As the poster child of evil2, she lives in and walks through eerie darkness. The birth of BlackTailmon, a variety of Tailmon, is very rare,3 and (rumor states that) there are4 very few as a result. In addition, BlackTailmon has a prideful and malicious personality5 and is a problematic Digimon who loves to bully the weak. This Dark-species Digimon naturally evolves into Fallen Angel-type Digimon. As with Tailmon, BlackTailmon's6 special attack is "Neko Punch".
    1 Corrected a sentence fragment. I really don't get why almost all of the profiles begin with fragments.
    2 Re-worded to avoid having to use pronouns.
    3 Removed awkward phrasing. When at all possible, avoiding such "circular-reference" use of the word 'it' is best.
    4 I'm cringing at the "no-reference" use of the word 'it'. The only way to fix this error is outright removal or replacement with something like "rumor states".
    5 Re-worded to avoid having to use pronouns as well as to correct a run-on sentence. The comma before "is a" does not belong.
    6 Re-worded to avoid having to use pronouns.

  5. #2135
    Quote Originally Posted by Lhikan634 View Post
    Well, using the recent profile, here's an example of how that could look (along with a few other grammatical corrections). Note that translations really should be put into the appropriate grammar of the second language to convey the same ideas instead of remaining in the original grammatical structure.
    Yep, that's exactly what I mean. So many of our translations (and again, I was no exception) adhere too much to the structure of the Japanese, which sounds terrible in English. When you read professional translations, they don't look anything like that, and there's really no excuse for us to leave them that way when there's an abundance of good writers in the fandom.

    BlackTailmon
    This Virus-attributed Tailmon has pitch-black fur that makes a strong impression1. As the poster child of evil2, she lives in and walks through eerie darkness. The birth of BlackTailmon, a variety of Tailmon, is very rare,3 and (rumor states that) there are4 very few as a result. In addition, BlackTailmon has a prideful and malicious personality5 and is a problematic Digimon who loves to bully the weak. This Dark-species Digimon naturally evolves into Fallen Angel-type Digimon. As with Tailmon, BlackTailmon's6 special attack is "Neko Punch".
    1 Corrected a sentence fragment. I really don't get why almost all of the profiles begin with fragments.
    2 Re-worded to avoid having to use pronouns.
    3 Removed awkward phrasing. When at all possible, avoiding such "circular-reference" use of the word 'it' is best.
    4 I'm cringing at the "no-reference" use of the word 'it'. The only way to fix this error is outright removal or replacement with something like "rumor states".
    5 Re-worded to avoid having to use pronouns as well as to correct a run-on sentence. The comma before "is a" does not belong.
    6 Re-worded to avoid having to use pronouns.
    I might edit it further as follows. In this case, the profile makes mention of the species in general, so I think "they" fits perfectly in this situation.

    This Virus-attribute Tailmon's pitch-black fur makes a strong impression. The poster children of evil, they live in and walk through eerie darkness. The birth of a Black Tailmon, a type of Tailmon, is rare, and therefore they are said to be few in number. Black Tailmon are proud and malicious Digimon that love to bully the weak. Naturally, these Dark-species Digimon evolve into Fallen Angel-type Digimon. As with Tailmon, Black Tailmon's special attack is "Neko Punch."

    I really don't like the "pitch-black fur makes a strong impression" and "the birth of a Black Tailmon, a type of Tailmon, is rare", but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. Actually, we could probably cut out the "a type of Tailmon" clause, since it is already explicit in the first sentence.

    This Virus-attribute Tailmon's pitch-black fur makes a strong impression. The poster children of evil, they live in and walk through eerie darkness. The birth of a Black Tailmon is rare, and therefore they are said to be few in number. Black Tailmon are proud and malicious Digimon that love to bully the weak. Naturally, these Dark-species Digimon evolve into Fallen Angel-type Digimon. As with Tailmon, Black Tailmon's special attack is "Neko Punch."
    Last edited by Shining Celebi; 09-03-2016 at 02:12 PM.

  6. #2136
    I'm going digital B-mon's Avatar
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    Maybe you could go with "leaves a strong impression" or "intimidates?" Intimidating may not be the correct context, though. It sounds like it's just saying her coat looks very good, or that she exudes a sense that she's powerful to other Digimon.

  7. #2137
    I come from the net Garmmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
    I really don't like the "pitch-black fur makes a strong impression" and "the birth of a Black Tailmon, a type of Tailmon, is rare", but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. Actually, we could probably cut out the "a type of Tailmon" clause, since it is already explicit in the first sentence.
    1 - A Virus-attribute (variety of) Tailmon with vivid, pitch-black fur. 'Vivid' can be used for memories/impressions so I think it can fit here
    2 - It is rare that a Black Tailmon is born as a variety of Tailmon(??) If we add in the 'variety of' above we can get rid of it in this sentence.

  8. #2138
    I come from the net Lhikan634's Avatar
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    I might even suggest simply saying "This Virus-attributed variety of Tailmon…" so as to eliminate the redundancy. That's also the only logical place to mention subspecies. Also, I'm really opposed to the improper and circular pronoun reference in the statement "It is rare", so I really have to suggest revision there.

    BlackTailmon
    This Virus-attributed variety1 of Tailmon has striking2, pitch-black fur. As the poster child of evil, she lives in and is bathed in an3 eerie darkness. The birth of BlackTailmon is very rare, so they are said to be few in number4. In addition, BlackTailmon has a mean, prideful personality and loves to bully the weak5. Naturally6, this Dark-species Digimon evolves into Fallen Angel-type Digimon. As with Tailmon, BlackTailmon's special attack is "Neko Punch".
    1 Moved the location of the word variety to the most natural location.
    2 The word 'striking' is much less awkward and seems to retain the intended meaning.
    3 "Walks through" looks like a translational issue. The first translation of 'wades' gives me more of a picture of a surrounding darkness like an aura.
    4 I think use of the word 'so' makes the sentence flow better. If Digimon normally can be pluralized, I'd suggest saying BlackTailmons.
    5 Using translation software, the word mean seems to be closer. I have no clue how to work in the "troubled"/"in trouble" aspect (is BlackTailmon a troubled child, or are the weak Digimon in trouble?). I'd also vote for removal for quasi redundancy. The only thing that comes to mind otherwise is "In addition, BlackTailmon is a troublesome Digimon due to its mean, prideful personality and love of bullying the weak" - if that's the correct usage.
    6 I agree with Celebi on this change. This placement of the word 'naturally' returns the implication from "by nature" to "of course" (cf. basically).

  9. #2139
    Super Moderator TMS's Avatar
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    Does "naturally" in this case mean "of course," or is the profile saying that BlackTailmon evolves naturally into Fallen Angel Digimon (as opposed to an unnatural/unusual evolution into something else)?
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  10. #2140
    I come from the net Lhikan634's Avatar
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    Using the highly-questionable Google Translate, the word most closely means basically or fundamentally (so maybe a better word would be "intrinsically"). I think more-seasoned translators would have to look into that, but I think this question gives an interesting example of how something so simple as the location of a word can change its implication.

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