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Thread: Demiurge, Yggdrasil, and Homeostasis

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    Demiurge, Yggdrasil, and Homeostasis

    In Digimon Adventure Tri they mention the beginning of the Digital World:

    原始
    In the beginning

    宇宙には魂のない作りて デミウルゴスと、
    Within the universe existed the soulless creator, Demiurgos,

    世界の真の姿である イデア、
    the true form of the world, Idea,

    混沌として形を持たない魂のみがあった。
    and a single shapeless soul; all as a chaos.

    デミウルゴスは自ら生み出し存在を知らず
    Demiurgos does not know of it's own existence.

    魂を知らず。
    Nor of the existence of the soul.

    イデアを知らず。
    Nor of Idea.

    添え生み出し世界は真の世界の影に過ぎず。
    The world that was created is merely a shadow of the true world.
    Now this is very interesting, as this is the first we're hearing about this Demiurgos figure.

    The real world myth about the Demiurgos ("demiurge") tells us it fashioned the worlds not out of nothing, but from existences that were a consequence of something else. So it's interesting that right after mentioning the Demiurgos we are then told there was the true form of the world "idea", speaking of course about Plato's philosophy about idealism in which he believed that everything that we see in existence is something of a reflection of it's true ideal form. But here we're talking about Idea in terms of the Digital World itself. So perhaps Idea in this sense was the quantum sea talked about in Kokuhaku?

    A quant is the smallest, indivisible unit of a system. If you have sea of them, it means you have a collection of many small units that form a bigger whole.
    And, in terms of computers, this would be literally data. A smallest possible unit in computers are bits, binary digits that can either be 1 or 0. If you put 8 of them together you get a Byte[1] if you put 1024 Bytes together you get a KibiByte[2] and thus you have a sea of bits, forming a larger unit.
    Its like we see an entire world and living things, but really it's all data. And if the Demiurgos created the Digital World and the other alternate worlds from the quantum sea, the Demiurgos would have to be something that could create things out of data. Something like...a computer.

    So where does Yggdrasil fit into all this? He's the established "god of the Digital World", the host computer connecting all the alternate worlds as well as the Digital World much like the real-life myth of the same name. But this sounds familiar, doesn't it?
    In Brave Tamer, Ryo meets ENIAC, the host computer of the Digital World which also happens to be connected to the alternate worlds. Now Yggdrasil was a later idea after they had moved on - for the time - from Adventure. Given the similarities between the two, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the writers took ENIAC and gave it more of a background as well as a name change. After all, both ENIAC and Yggdrasil are portrayed the same way between Brave Tamer and X Evolution respectively, as an orb of light on a single pedestal. Basically, my theory is that:

    Demiurgos = ABC
    Yggdrasil = ENIAC

    After Idea, it mentions a "shapeless soul", like an incorporeal being. Perhaps this is Homeostasis? The writers of Digimon created Homeostasis as well as ENIAC, existing in the Adventure universe at the same time. In Tri, Yggdrasil and Homeostasis appear to exist on equal terms, as if they are side by side. In Kokuhaku, Homeostasis is established with the title "god of the Digital World." But this is a title often given to Yggdrasil. So could Homeostasis be an entity equal to or along side Yggdrasil? When you consider the shutdown of Yggdrasil at the end of Tri, it would seem the Digital World, and really all the worlds, remain in tact. So this would mean something has kept these worlds in tact in Yggdrasil's stead, in this case the one who shut down Yggdrasil; Homeostasis.

    Of course this wouldn't be the first time Homeostasis has replaced Yggdrasil. It happened in the Xros Wars universe as well. So what are Yggdrasil and Homeostasis exactly? Are each of them something like an OS? Is Yggdrasil the tree itself or is the tree the host on which Yggdrasil operates? Where does Homeostasis come from exactly?

    As far as I know there really isn't anything more about this. If there's anything else feel free to add it in the thread. I was thinking about this because of my last watch of Tri and wanted to explore possibilities like these.
    Last edited by DBxDigimon_fan; 03-23-2019 at 09:25 AM.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Theigno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    The real world myth about the Demiurgos ("demiurge") tells us it fashioned the worlds not out of nothing, but from existences that were a consequence of something else. So it's interesting that right after mentioning the Demiurgos we are then told there was the true form of the world "idea", speaking of course about Plato's philosophy about idealism in which he believed that everything that we see in existence is something of a reflection of it's true ideal form.
    ...I don't think there is much reason to go much deeper into philosophical metaphors than the first sentence here. Because, guess what, the digital world is a often mixed up and twisted interpretation of disembodied information flowing in through humanity's computer network. That information can easily be viewed as the platonic "ideal forms" from the perspective of the digital world right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    But here we're talking about Idea in terms of the Digital World itself. So perhaps Idea in this sense was the quantum sea talked about in Kokuhaku?
    That does not fit with anything we've heard about the quantum sea. The quantum sea was always portrayed as the primordial chaos, the raw material that gives shape to the ideas, but that does not itself contain any ideas, and is is fact used to signify the absence of both the soul and idea. The quantum sea swallowing worlds was not implied to be an ascension to an "ideal" plane compared to the flawed material worlds, but the opposite. It would rob them of any shape and reduce them to undefined material chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    A quant is the smallest, indivisible unit of a system. If you have sea of them, it means you have a collection of many small units that form a bigger whole.
    And, in terms of computers, this would be literally data. A smallest possible unit in computers are bits, binary digits that can either be 1 or 0. If you put 8 of them together you get a Byte[1] if you put 1024 Bytes together you get a KibiByte[2] and thus you have a sea of bits, forming a larger unit.
    I don't know who you are quoting here but not only terms questionably defined throughout (are we really calling any "collection of units" a sea?) , the focus on digital data also reveals that the whole point of the quantum ocean has been misunderstood. After all it does not form the basis of only digital worlds but of all of them... making any "cyberspace" focused explanation simply inadequate.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    Its like we see an entire world and living things, but really it's all data. And if the Demiurgos created the Digital World and the other alternate worlds from the quantum sea, the Demiurgos would have to be something that could create things out of data. Something like...a computer.
    The claim that the demiurge "has to be a computer" because it does things with "data" does not make sense, since by throwing in "and the other alternate worlds" you have completely sabotaged that particular argument once again. A completely digital/programmatic universe arising from a computer god makes sense from a certain naive reductionist point of view but since other universes can contain literally anything else the god creating these could (and probably should, as the creator generally exists beyond the scope of the creation) also be literally anything else. We humans can, within the limits of our technology simulate primitive worlds of data through computers that we've made, without being computers ourselves, so if you are describing a being that can create digital worlds in addition to arbitrary other worlds you are not at all necessarily describing a computer but simply a being that is capable of creating a computer ...which is a completely different scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    So where does Yggdrasil fit into all this? He's the established "god of the Digital World", the host computer connecting all the alternate worlds as well as the Digital World much like the real-life myth of the same name. But this sounds familiar, doesn't it?
    Except he isn't. Besides Cyber Sleuth (which handled it in a somewhat unidirectional way) there was never really much multidimensional about Yggdrasil. In the lore he's for example not even in control of anything outside his particular server (Other Host computers like Homeros exist for other parts of the same world). He's a single host computer of a single server of a single world. The parallel to the myth was never that he connects the multiverse but that he connected the mythology based terminals in the New Digital World as seen in chronicle and X-Evo.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    In Brave Tamer, Ryo meets ENIAC, the host computer of the Digital World which also happens to be connected to the alternate worlds. Now Yggdrasil was a later idea after they had moved on - for the time - from Adventure.
    Given the similarities between the two, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the writers took ENIAC and gave it more of a background as well as a name change.
    Or the two ideas could have been completely independent which seems far more likely since the concept of a cyberspace being governed by a main computer is so generic and ubiquitous that you can find it countless sc-fi stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    After all, both ENIAC and Yggdrasil are portrayed the same way between Brave Tamer and X Evolution respectively, as an orb of light on a single pedestal. Basically, my theory is that:


    Demiurgos = ABC
    Yggdrasil = ENIAC
    Yep, because the Demiurge who according to you created all the parallel worlds being a computer created by humans in one of those parallel worlds does not contradict itself whatsoever.
    And would the opening titles of tri really make a big point of referring to something that not only can barely be called a proper character but is also never mentioned or has any relevancy to the plot of tri at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    The writers of Digimon created Homeostasis as well as ENIAC, existing in the Adventure universe at the same time.
    I doubt that the WS games and the anime were written by the same people or that there was much coordination between the writers at all. Generally from what we hear when the creators mention what's going on in another medium it usually boils down to something vague like "we are aware that someone did something at some point". So the notion of portraying the "writers of Digimon" as some sort consistent reference is not really worth much.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    In Tri, Yggdrasil and Homeostasis appear to exist on equal terms, as if they are side by side. In Kokuhaku, Homeostasis is established with the title "god of the Digital World." But this is a title often given to Yggdrasil. So could Homeostasis be an entity equal to or along side Yggdrasil? When you consider the shutdown of Yggdrasil at the end of Tri, it would seem the Digital World, and really all the worlds, remain in tact. So this would mean something has kept these worlds in tact in Yggdrasil's stead, in this case the one who shut down Yggdrasil; Homeostasis.
    Once again, Yggdrasil was never implied to have much to do with any world besides the digital world. One could also argue, that yggdrasil was never necessary for the world to "function" in the first place. He has been pulled from his pedestal in multiple continuities already and the worlds were fine without him.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    So what are Yggdrasil and Homeostasis exactly? Are each of them something like an OS? Is Yggdrasil the tree itself or is the tree the host on which Yggdrasil operates? Where does Homeostasis come from exactly?
    I don't see them as anything else than ordinary programs that just happened to be generated with high access rights and without physical shapes. And just like Holy Beasts in Tamers they might have claimed godhood solely based on their abilities rather than any higher purpose that's actually inherent to the world. At least that's what I find to be compatible with Tri portraying them as flawed beings that are not exactly good at their jobs.
    Last edited by Theigno; 03-24-2019 at 07:29 AM.

  3. #3
    Junior Commander DBxDigimon_fan's Avatar
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    Well, I can't say I appreciate the tone, but you make some good points. Even though they're portrayed the same way they still may not necessarily be the same thing. And on second thought, "core computer" and "host computer" also may not be the same thing. Having said that, they are likely different beings as you say.

    The only thing I have to disagree with you about is the quantum sea. Our world is not said to have come out of the quantum sea. Homeostasis said that the networks that connect our digital devices came from the quantum sea, and so did the digital world. But Homeostaasis continues by saying if the infected digimon destroy the quantum sea, the Digital World will cease to exist, not our world. Here, we merely lose "the benefit of electronics." Still a major blow to our progress, but not nearly as bad as having the world be destroyed etc. I'm also not so sure the other worlds, such as the dark ocean or the world of dreams, aren't made of data like the digital world. Maybe you could clarify further on why you don't think so?
    Last edited by DBxDigimon_fan; 03-27-2019 at 10:58 AM.

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    I see both sides, and I think it is kind of pointless to try to connect so many dots... I doubt the creators are ever going to paint such a complex picture within the series/franchise itself. But I deeply appreciate the discussion, so thank you, DBxDigimon_fan, for starting it!

    In general I'd like to add that all other worlds we've seen so far seem to be in some way reflections of the real world (like the digital world), or a manifestation - or even the source - of what actually is an idea in the real world (such as dreams). So I think that we should also consider that from the perspective of the Digital World, the real world may be the ideal plane, and as such something that exists as a mere human construct in the real world may in fact be the God/creator/whatever for other worlds.

    I guess it all has to do with the scope they'd like the Digimon mythology to have. They can really make any single aspect of it feel as big and important as they'd like compared to everything else.

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    Junior Commander DBxDigimon_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmon View Post
    I see both sides, and I think it is kind of pointless to try to connect so many dots... I doubt the creators are ever going to paint such a complex picture within the series/franchise itself.
    Eh you're probably right. I might be going too deep making these kinds of connections. But I do think there is some discussion to be had about what some of this means. There are a lot of cryptic parts of Tri that I think have at least some kind of meaning or purpose behind them. I think it's fun to explore these ideas!

    all other worlds we've seen so far seem to be in some way reflections of the real world (like the digital world), or a manifestation - or even the source - of what actually is an idea in the real world (such as dreams). So I think that we should also consider that from the perspective of the Digital World, the real world may be the ideal plane, and as such something that exists as a mere human construct in the real world may in fact be the God/creator/whatever for other worlds.
    Well, Demiurgos is soulless, so I don't think we can count a human as a creator since humans usually are portrayed as having souls.

    The other worlds, however, do absolutely seem to be manefestations from things in our world. Two worlds that we see in 02 are examples of this; the dark ocean and that world Oikawa inadvertently led everyone into. Gennai said its foundation is the same power as the Digital World's. The dark ocean is inhabited by digimon and is accessible from both the real and digital world, not to mention the light of digimon evolution comes from the lighthouse there. That and the explanation by Homeostasis in Kokuhaku about the digital world and other worlds coming out of the quantum sea along with the networks, all leads me to believe that the other worlds are also made of data. If each world is some kind of reflection from the real world, I guess that would make our world the "true form" of "the world that is a shadow of the true world." But I'm still on the fence about whether or not Idea is the quantum sea from which our networks and the digital world, as well as other worlds, were formed.

    I don't know how important Demiurgos is to the lore of Digimon Adventure, on one hand this is the only time they really talked about it, but on the other hand Demiurgos is a/the creator which is a pretty big deal. Maybe Demiurgos isn't meant to be another name for something that already exists like ABC and is meant to be a de facto new entity. Perhaps we're not meant to know yet. Lol
    Last edited by DBxDigimon_fan; 03-27-2019 at 08:01 PM.

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    Super Moderator Theigno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    The only thing I have to disagree with you about is the quantum sea. Our world is not said to have come out of the quantum sea.
    Yes it is. Even back in Part 3 it was explicitly stated that "Every possible world has emerged".
    If something is impossible it cannot exist, therefore the fact that the human world exists proves that it is a possible world and therefore it emerged from the Quantum sea, which is said to be the primordial world different from all other "possible worlds".
    This generally (although in the usual vague fantasy way) fits with the "quantum" reference of the quantum sea (the actual quantum mechanics one, not the nonsense bit/quantum comparison quoted earlier), as this is, in a very simplified way how the classical Everett Many Worlds Interpretation defines its particular way of determinism: All possible outcomes of events exist at once in different worlds.
    As usual, fiction transplants the concepts into the purely macroscopic but the core sentiment of containing all possibilities stays the same.
    And that is only the reasoning that is possible before they confirmed it later.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    Homeostasis said that the networks that connect our digital devices came from the quantum sea, and so did the digital world.
    That's not correct that way. The digital world emerged from the quantum sea in reaction to the networks of the human world, not the networks themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    But Homeostaasis continues by saying if the infected digimon destroy the quantum sea, the Digital World will cease to exist, not our world. Here, we merely lose "the benefit of electronics." Still a major blow to our progress, but not nearly as bad as having the world be destroyed etc.
    Losing the access to electronics was mentioned but even then it was made very clear that in the worst case scenario the interference with the quantum sea could end all worlds, real world included (the human world has in terms of existence never been granted special status over other parallel worlds, not even when 02 first introduced the concept).
    The other mistake here is basing the entire argument on the exposition in part 3, back before the extent of the crisis was even revealed. As the situations worsens during the last parts, the situation looks completely different for our world and the threat is revised to be far more drastic: "To our calculation, everything will be overwritten in 94,524 seconds and the Real World will become modified back into the quantum sea." This confirms its origin, since it should be obvious that you cannot go back to somewhere you didn't come from.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    I'm also not so sure the other worlds, such as the dark ocean or the world of dreams, aren't made of data like the digital world. Maybe you could clarify further on why you don't think so?
    Data is just another word for information (or encoded information if you will, but "unencoded" information is kind of an impossibility in itself), so literally everything is data. Not even the term "digital" has anything to do with computers in the context of information science, it simply means that data is stored using discrete values. Human DNA is 100% digital data since it is encoded using a discrete number of states and morse code is binary data. So yes, all worlds might at their cores be just data (as usual the human world is included here, there's nothing special about it) but if you mean "digital computer data", then of course many or most worlds might not be based on this and they don't need to be either... as Adventure (and fiction in general) seems completely free of any issues regarding compatibility and translation of different encodings anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    Well, Demiurgos is soulless, so I don't think we can count a human as a creator since humans usually are portrayed as having souls.
    I don't think the demiurge is supposed to be human (I am pretty much certain it's Yggdrasil as since his inception he perfectly fits the general archetype of the demiurge figure, that of the flawed and untrustworthy god who does not understand the essence of his creation) but while humans themselves have souls but could still be said to act ignorant and "soulless" by simply not having any awareness of their creation. Humans haven't been aware that their data is coagulating into Digimon in another dimension, which qualifies them as very clueless creators, ignorant of the act of creating.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    The dark ocean is inhabited by digimon and is accessible from both the real and digital world, not to mention the light of digimon evolution comes from the lighthouse there.
    This is the first time I've heard someone interpreting this scene this drastically. It always seemed to me that all the light was simply the regular light of evolution (or perhaps Hikari's particular brand of it) being set free after having been inhibited by the dark tower inside the lighthouse rather than being produced there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBxDigimon_fan View Post
    The other worlds, however, do absolutely seem to be manefestations from things in our world. Two worlds that we see in 02 are examples of this; the dark ocean and that world Oikawa inadvertently led everyone into. Gennai said its foundation is the same power as the Digital World's. [...] If each world is some kind of reflection from the real world, I guess that would make our world the "true form" of "the world that is a shadow of the true world."
    I still believe the assumption that the human world has a special place among the parallel worlds is fundamentally flawed. While it is true that the worlds we have seen have a connection to it, this arrangement itself is explained in tri as well: "the worlds quite similar yet different to one another lie side-by-side."
    In other words, the human world only appears to be special because similar compatible worlds are naturally aligned closer to our world while all the other worlds that don't share this connection are not as readily accessible, resulting in a skewed (but in a narrative sense rather convenient) perspective. And from their own perspective other worlds could claim the same central status as well.
    It's easy for a fish to believe that water is the entirety of the world when all he can get to are the rivers connected to the ocean, while being ignorant of anything past the shore.
    And again, we are told that "All possible worlds" had emerged, and arguing that the human world is the root of "all possible worlds" would be the very definition of bias and ignorance considering the very delicate circumstances humans evolved under, making ourselves only one insignificant possibility among many.

  7. #7
    Junior Commander DBxDigimon_fan's Avatar
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    Ok so, I completely forgot about Hackmon's statement about the real world "returning to" the quantum sea.

    EDITx2: I was obsessing. I kept thinking the quantum sea had to be one of those mentioned in the intro of Saikai. But really, it I may not be any of those as it turns out. I have been thinking about it, I still think its talking about the Digital World. Reason being, its specific to what's being shown, the creation of the a digi egg; which happens in the Digital World. Plus, it fits well the philosophy of idealism and the Digital World having an ideal form.

    I think Homeostasis and Yggdrasil came from the quantum sea with the Digital World. They don't have to precede our world, or any world before the Digital World, in order to use their abilities to manipulate worlds in the quantum sea.

    Another thing I noticed, Yggdrasil never actually reboots any world. That's all being done by Homeostasis. It doesn't necessarily mean he isn't capable of it, but it certainly is interesting; especially considering Homeostasis was able to shut down and replace Yggdrasil but it does not happen the other way around. It is possible, perhaps, Homeostasis is somehow higher in ability than Yggdrasil. It is truethat Yggdrasil is a host computer, and said to be "god of the Digital World" - but what does that make Homeostasis who has been given the same title and has the ability to supercede Yggdrasil?

    Demiurgos is still a mystery to me. The more I think about it, the more I begin to think they are talking about the creation of the Digital World. Not buying that it is Yggdrasil, though. Yggdrasil isn't a creator, neither in the real-life myth nor in the Digimon lore. Also, there was a theory here somewhere that Demiurgos is Apocalymon and that the "ideal, true form" is what Apocalymon is made of. That would make the creation Meicoomon, rather than the Digital World itself which would be more of a metaphor. All very interesting. Plenty to mull over for sure.
    Last edited by DBxDigimon_fan; 04-01-2019 at 07:35 PM.

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