With the Will > Portal | Forum | News | Gallery | Podcast | IRC Chat | File Island | Digital Starlight | Card Terminal | DMA | Digipedia
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 19 of 19

Thread: 20th Pendulum Update- RagnaLordmon, Jogress of the 20th Anniversary Legend Arms

  1. #11
    Super Moderator Theigno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    in a house
    Age
    24
    Posts
    2,146
    Quote Originally Posted by shaikgb View Post
    well they don't have to choose just the melee weapons they can use weapons like a catapult or a gun or a bomb there are a lot of things that can be used as weapon even a stick counts as a weapon i'm sure they won't have too many problems creating a lot of legend arms
    The point isn't that there's no room for creation but that there's almost no room for many relevant monsters that would have advantages over RagnaLordmon in many situations. I'm not sure why you bring up long range weapons like it's supposed to some kind of relevation considering I've brought them up in my previous post as well (an anti air defense usually doesn't consist of swords, you know). The thing is that this doesn't open up that much design space because the concept of most guns is... well, very similar and since this is not about appreciating differences in construction stuff would repeat itself very soon. Plus, if you look at the profiles of Rudomon's line it's clear that those shields are blocking more than just swords. Hell that explosion that Rudomon, the child form, is blocking in his profile picture is bigger than most impact explosions caused by guns, so you can't seriously try to tell me that the later forms of his line are somehow vulnerable to guns and cannon fire. Especially since those later forms also negate the main weakness that normal shields have against guns (namely that you can get shot from a long distance from an angle the shield just doesn't cover) by having additional shields in form of force fields. Unless you are trying to argue that LordRagnamon somehow has a downgraded defense compared to the Digimon he evolved from which would make things fair but at the same point would make the evolution itself kind of pointless.
    As I pointed out earlier it's not about the sword. In a cramped room someone with a knife has a decent chance to defeat an opponent with a sword because swinging a sword needs space but if that same opponent also has an nigh impenetrable shield that basically nullifies all the advantages you could get out of that. On the other hand, if they combined two offensive type weapon arms like sword and axe for example the lack of defense would still balance things out just as would the lack of offense in a fusion between two defensive ones.
    So sure, we'll get more of them but chances are they'll just seem kind of pathetic comparatively which is not a good look depending on how many of them are coming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muur View Post
    Gun, canon, nun chucks, brass knuckles
    Haha, two things that the strongest shield should be able to block without problems and two weapons that are hilarious inefficient against swords. Thanks for reinforcing my point.
    Last edited by Theigno; 07-08-2018 at 01:06 PM.

  2. #12
    Junior Commander shaikgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Theigno View Post
    The point isn't that there's no room for creation but that there's almost no room for many relevant monsters that would have advantages over RagnaLordmon in many situations. I'm not sure why you bring up long range weapons like it's supposed to some kind of relevation considering I've brought them up in my previous post as well (an anti air defense usually doesn't consist of swords, you know). The thing is that this doesn't open up that much design space because the concept of most guns is... well, very similar and since this is not about appreciating differences in construction stuff would repeat itself very soon. Plus, if you look at the profiles of Rudomon's line it's clear that those shields are blocking more than just swords. Hell that explosion that Rudomon, the child form, is blocking in his profile picture is bigger than most impact explosions caused by guns, so you can't seriously try to tell me that the later forms of his line are somehow vulnerable to guns and cannon fire. Especially since those later forms also negate the main weakness that normal shields have against guns (namely that you can get shot from a long distance from an angle the shield just doesn't cover) by having additional shields in form of force fields. Unless you are trying to argue that LordRagnamon somehow has a downgraded defense compared to the Digimon he evolved from which would make things fair but at the same point would make the evolution itself kind of pointless.
    As I pointed out earlier it's not about the sword. In a cramped room someone with a knife has a decent chance to defeat an opponent with a sword because swinging a sword needs space but if that same opponent also has an nigh impenetrable shield that basically nullifies all the advantages you could get out of that. On the other hand, if they combined two offensive type weapon arms like sword and axe for example the lack of offense would still balance things out just as would the lack of offense in a fusion between two defensive ones.
    So sure, we'll get more of them but chances are they'll just seem kind of pathetic comparatively which is not a good look depending on how many of them are coming.
    oh sry i didn't get what you were trying to say, and yes ragnalordmon is seems to be very strong and the next legend arms might not be stronger then him but do they really need to? omegamon was the first royal knight to be known and most royal knights are weaker then him the future legend arms don't need to be stronger then ragnalordmon they just need to be strong enough to make the 1 that holds them be able to save the world or destroy it

  3. #13
    I come from the net
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,705
    If you are worried, then it's alright Durandamon puts its fighting spirit on "Sword Mode" basically he is sorta like "shonen protagonist" won't lose in many rows.

  4. #14
    I'm a Maniac DigiGrader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    121
    Is it safe to think that duramon is the strongest sword that symbolizes offense and Ludomon is the strongest shield which symbolizes defense?
    If so, then any other arms digimon won't be able to surpass these two in term of offense and defense.

    However, any new digimon whoudl be good even if they are not on par with these two.
    They can also make the new arm digimon have other aspect that Duramon and Ludomon don't have.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Theigno View Post
    Having this kind of fusion already actually makes me kind of worried about the future of the Legend Arms group in general. They got the Digimon with the greatest sword and the greatest shield so in terms of classical melee weapons there's not much to go from there. I mean what are they going to do next? A potential future fusion of the Digimon with the strongest knife and the strongest shin guard or whatever would look just pathetic next to this one and unless the next Legend Arms go into completely different directions warfare like the strongest nuke and strongest anti-air defense or the strongest nerve gas and the strongest flesh eating bacteria there's not going to be much competition for this.
    To be clear, its mostly the involvement of the strongest shield that is really putting me off here because its just such an ubiquitous concept and basically the most basic and universal defense tool in general. On the other hand Durandamon is not necessarily the be all end all of offense, simply because swords are not universally the best close combat melee weapons, plenty of alternatives, spears, war hammers and whatnot would in the right circumstances beat out a sword, its quality be damned and a Digimon with those attributes could potentially make short work of Durandamon alone but in combination with the ultimate shield that just seems kind of pointless. So basically at least I feel like concept wise they could have written themselves into a corner in a way that didn't really happen to much with other groups where we might have had plenty of "irresistible force" paradoxes but that were nonetheless balanced in the sense of cancelling each other out.
    I'm looking forward to seeing the final design though, I'm expecting lots of red and gold goodness.
    IMO, don't take the digimon's descriptions seriously. I like to think that they are written by an in-universe wide-eyed fanboy, who readily hype up each one because he/she loves them too much. I mean metalgreymon is supposedly as powerful as a nuke, and they are not rarer than the next perfect or anything; so any battle involving them should literally blow up the entire area already.

    Even if they say bryweludramon is the strongest shield, I assume that only means that the shield will not break? wikimon only says ' a shield boasting absolute hardness, one that cannot be scratched by any attack,' and not that it can defend against any attack; A strong enough concussive force can probably turn the guy behind the shield into jelly. tialudomon has this description 'protecting its wielder from any attack that comes their way. ' and its evolution, raijiludomon's description says 'to withstand even an attack from an Ultimate level head-on'
    interestingly as the digimon evolves, its protection range seem to get wider, so maybe we can view it like this
    tialudomon can protect its WIELDER from ANY attack, implying that its protection is absolute, but can only protect a single wielder at a time, but
    raijiludomon can withstand an ultimate level attack, perhaps it can only withstand an ultimate level attack at best, but its protection range increases to 'the entire region'
    bryweludramon is simply very hard, but it can cover the entire world.
    If this is correct (which is probably not because I'm shoehorning basically lol), it would give Ludomon's line versatility, and it doesn't always have to evolve to its final stage to be useful.

  6. #16
    Super Moderator Theigno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    in a house
    Age
    24
    Posts
    2,146
    Quote Originally Posted by shaikgb View Post
    ragnalordmon is seems to be very strong and the next legend arms might not be stronger then him but do they really need to?
    No, they don't need to be stronger, in fact my point is that being strictly universally stronger is what is in the end unhealthy for the franchise. If the strength is concentrated in specific areas that's fine because that creates vulnerabilities in different contexts. I'm worried about what might see here because it approaches just that level of universal "betterness" which is boring.
    I'd refer to the comparison page in the V-pet Artbook which illustrates in its battle lineup, in which the Digimon that is defeated first is also the one beating the last winner, that (besides fundamental differences like levels) the power relations are not intended to be strictly linear.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaikgb View Post
    omegamon was the first royal knight to be known and most royal knights are weaker then him
    You say that but... we don't know that. We mostly just know that Omegamon is an All-Rounder type and for all we know half of the other ones could beat him, or not; it's all up in the air, and that's the beauty of it.
    The lack of a definite ranking makes things interesting. The knights are all very different in the most fantastical aspects. Abilities like Ulforce or Alpha Inforce are so dramatically different in their workings that they are borderline incomparable, so that there is no surefire way to know how they would interact or which of their owners would win a battle.

    The reason the Legend Arms group doesn't make me feel that way is because their gimmick is basically limited to a specific weapon type and there's just less of that mystery there, we know which kinds of weapons are advantageous against other weapons and that on one hand makes for a richer analysis of their capabilities but of course also makes it easier to spot inaccuracies in their portrayal. And my main fear is that after this they'll end up introducing inaccuracies when trying to make future legend arms seem more effective than they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaikgb View Post
    the future legend arms don't need to be stronger then ragnalordmon they just need to be strong enough to make the 1 that holds them be able to save the world or destroy it
    I didn't say it was a canonical problem, it's not even that big of a hurdle since quite a few Ultimates, Legend Arms or not have powers of that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow Hawk View Post
    If you are worried, then it's alright Durandamon puts its fighting spirit on "Sword Mode" basically he is sorta like "shonen protagonist" won't lose in many rows.
    Cheap narrative tricks are irrelevant. Not to mention that generic assurances of victory apply to so many Digimon that they basically cancel each other out by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiGrader View Post
    However, any new digimon whoudl be good even if they are not on par with these two.
    They can also make the new arm digimon have other aspect that Duramon and Ludomon don't have.
    They could. There's room for ranged weapons since neither shields nor swords do much in that context. The rest would be super specialized and that just doesn't make for a very good... progression I guess? If LordRagnamon is their biggest all-around talent in general I would have preferred him to be introduced near the end at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teddyzmon View Post
    IMO, don't take the digimon's descriptions seriously. I like to think that they are written by an in-universe wide-eyed fanboy, who readily hype up each one because he/she loves them too much.
    I will always take them more seriously than most other parts of the franchise, since they are the very core those other parts are based around (unfortunately mostly in underwhelming ways). I also don't feel that they are nearly as hyperbolic as many imply in most cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teddyzmon View Post
    I mean metalgreymon is supposedly as powerful as a nuke, and they are not rarer than the next perfect or anything; so any battle involving them should literally blow up the entire area already.
    That is probably exactly what happens and I don't see any problem with that assumption. Other perfect level Digimon also have the power of nukes, which just means that in Digimon terms of power that's just not that big of a deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teddyzmon View Post
    Even if they say bryweludramon is the strongest shield, I assume that only means that the shield will not break? wikimon only says 'a shield boasting absolute hardness, one that cannot be scratched by any attack,' and not that it can defend against any attack; A strong enough concussive force can probably turn the guy behind the shield into jelly.
    That's a good point I guess but it mostly applies to situations in which there's an actual organic body to be jellyfied. And with current Ultimate designs that's not guaranteed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teddyzmon View Post
    tialudomon has this description 'protecting its wielder from any attack that comes their way. ' and its evolution, raijiludomon's description says 'to withstand even an attack from an Ultimate level head-on'
    interestingly as the digimon evolves, its protection range seem to get wider, so maybe we can view it like this
    tialudomon can protect its WIELDER from ANY attack, implying that its protection is absolute, but can only protect a single wielder at a time, but
    raijiludomon can withstand an ultimate level attack, perhaps it can only withstand an ultimate level attack at best, but its protection range increases to 'the entire region'
    bryweludramon is simply very hard, but it can cover the entire world.
    If this is correct (which is probably not because I'm shoehorning basically lol), it would give Ludomon's line versatility, and it doesn't always have to evolve to its final stage to be useful.
    That would be interesting but my interpretation of abilities described in the profiles is that they are (unless explicitly stated differently like in RaijiLudomon's case or involving manipulating data itself) always described from the context of Digimon at the same or lower level. So if for example it says that Hisyaryumon can "bisect the enemy in a single stroke" this would refer to Perfects or below but not necessarily to Ultimates.
    Needless to say with that interpretation the argument about TiaLudomon and and RaijiLudomon gets reversed.
    Anyway, Bryweludramon, when he's not fused, is totally fine in both of those cases since his very overspecialization in defense is a sort of handicap. I would have been way happier if he could be part of a fusion between more defensive types of legend to keep that balance.
    Last edited by Theigno; 07-08-2018 at 01:04 PM.

  7. #17
    Ain't got no mojo...
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    28
    For the Legend-Arms as a whole, I was under the impression that the duo dynamics of Ludomon and Zubamon are unique to them, from their rivalry as the strongest offense/defense to their sword-and-board compatibility as a pair (and potentially the only Legend-Arms with a Jogress). I thought of them as the equivalent of Agumon and Gabumon in their Adventure 01 group. I do agree that introducing the strongest pair of Legend-Arms first would probably reduce my excitement towards the later Legend-Arms in the future.

    If it's of any relevance, Watanabe has given some examples of potential Legend-Arms in his interview a few months ago, like a spear or a bow (I could see a bow Legend-Arms with a tagline of boasting the longest range). He also gave an example line for a potential harisen Legend-Arms involving slippers, pico pico hammers, and hundred-ton hammers (though this was probably just a joke).
    Last edited by YongYoKyo; 07-08-2018 at 11:20 PM.

  8. #18
    I come from the net
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,705
    Even if RagnaLordmon being OP, at least its existence will be rarer like GraceNovamon. So relax!

    I'd like to see Legend Arm of Bow (Infinite range), Spear (Absolute Piercing), Hammer (100% Guard Breaker) and Japanese sword (Quickest Draw?)
    But if they actually design Legend Arm of Dagger... I cannot imagine how it used for OP.

  9. #19
    Funny how some days ago i posted "Bryweldramon + Durandamon" in "let's play a jogress game" and then it actually happen this soon..

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •