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Thread: Thoughts so far on new tri. Characters?

  1. #11
    I come from the net Jay Ukyou's Avatar
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    AquaVersus, I've seen you bring this up before and now it's got me curious: How would you have liked to see Maki and Daigo develop? You've expressed clearly why you don't like how they developed. (I feel the complete opposite on almost all points, but I can see how you feel with the basis of just not liking the premise of the original chosen and the holy beasts connection in the first place.)

    But yeah, you're good at explaining yourself, so I want to know how you would have liked to see it occur.
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  2. #12
    Junior Commander Tetra Seleno's Avatar
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    On the subject of Maki and Daigo being a part of the pre-1999 group of Chosen Children:

    It's definitely fallen to the background in the most recent film, but a big theme of the first third of the OVA was transitioning into adulthood. Reunion began with Taichi somewhat listless about what direction he should take his life, and one of the primary conflicts in Determination was Jyou shunning his duties as a Chosen because he thought that's what being an adult entailed. My favorite scene in Confession is Yamato admitting that, despite appearances, he's afraid to grow up too.

    The writers' decision to revive that old piece of "sure-why-not" exposition from the end of Adventure really has more to do with this theme of growing up than anything else, IMO. Even before the big reveals of Loss, Maki continually was framed as the kind of adult that the Chosen could grow up into, and never in a positive light. The intro to that movie is a perfect way to both reveal Maki's past and strongly hint at her motives (which were very much inscrutable until then). She is a cautionary tale for Taichi and the others.

    Daigo, therefore, represents the other end of the spectrum -- a fairly well-adjusted adult. Even though Maki is the primary subject of that sequence, the scene does a lot to re-establish Daigo's importance as a foil not only to Maki (which had been one of his primary duties thus far), but to the Chosen Children as a whole.

    To be frank, I think focusing on Daigo and Maki's significance in the lore of Adventure (not only as the OG Chosen Children, but that their partners evolved into the Four Holy Beasts) is kind of pointless in the grand scheme of tri, because that reveal isn't about elevating their importance in the mythology or lore of the series, although that is a consequence of the decision. The primary objective of that scene is another thread in tri.'s overarching theme of growing up.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Ukyou View Post
    AquaVersus, I've seen you bring this up before and now it's got me curious: How would you have liked to see Maki and Daigo develop? You've expressed clearly why you don't like how they developed. (I feel the complete opposite on almost all points, but I can see how you feel with the basis of just not liking the premise of the original chosen and the holy beasts connection in the first place.)

    But yeah, you're good at explaining yourself, so I want to know how you would have liked to see it occur.
    Firstly, sorry for the long time it took to respond to this. I had to take a break from this board (and many other things) in March due to "real life" stuff, but now I'm browsing again and saw this. I see the thread hasn't really been active since then besides Tetra Seleno posting once after you -- which I will also respond to! -- so I figured it would be fine to "bump" this topic, as it's still on the main Tri page.

    I appreciate that you can disagree with me but with the caveat that I'm good at explaining myself. I've always thought that it's fine if people don't share my views as long as they can understand me.

    So you're asking how I would have liked to see Maki and Daigo develop, but in order to answer that question...Digimon Adventure tri. would have to be a completely different story. Let's get it out of the way first that Tri isn't over, so Daigo and Maki still have further developments to present to us on-screen. For example, while I can't stand Maki as a person (I found her actions to be selfish, stupid, and dangerous), she might be able to redeem herself in the next two films. We'll see. As for Daigo, it would have been really great if he actually did something in Loss, like possibly be the one to help Meiko get to the Digital World (which might have been the case off-screen). I wish he would have "caught on" to Maki's plan earlier, especially since it didn't seem to take much detective work from what we saw on screen -- he's known her for a long time and should've known that her obsession with bringing back her partner would have persisted through adulthood.

    But that's all in the context of Tri as we've seen it so far. Like you've explained in the past and Tetra explained above, Daigo and Maki are thematic foils and possibilities for what kinds of adults the Adventure kids might grow up into. If that's the type of story Tri wants to tell, then it's really hard for me to explain what I wanted from Daigo and Maki without getting into the topic of what I personally wanted Tri to be.

    So I'll be getting into that. :P Later on, though, I will indeed acknowledge that with the story Tri is presenting to us right now, there really isn't a better way to show the development of Daigo and Maki than by what we've already seen. It's just that I wish Tri in general were a very different story.

    To fully answer your question, I have to acknowledge that there are different levels or different possibilities with which I would have been satisfied:

    1) "The new Adventure anime is a slice-of-life show focusing on the characters' daily lives and Maki/Daigo do not exist." This is what I was hoping for from the get-go. The very first teaser for Tri just gave us the following words: Taichi, seventeen, high school days. So far we haven't really seen the "high school days" of Taichi and co., but at the time, I was expecting a school drama featuring the Adventure kids (both 99 and 02). I believe I've talked about this ad nauseam in the past (lmao), but I was really jonesing for an Adventure slice of life show. Give me 26 episodes of the Adventure kids exploring their hobbies, figuring out who they are, and dealing with the increasing amount of Chosen Children and Digimon intermingling with the "real world" -- this would tie it into the 02 epilogue both in terms of future professions and the controversial "everyone has a partner" angle. I would have loved to see the following:


    • Taichi getting bored with soccer and wondering how long he can continue to "be a child" when comparing things like soccer tournaments to his adventures as a Chosen Child;
    • Yamato becoming interested in space, possibly reflected by joining an astronomy club in high school, basically having similar issues as Taichi and trying to find his identity as an adult (a man with a career) versus his identity as a child (a kid in a band with alternate world adventures);
    • Some focus episodes on Sora detailing her transition from soccer to tennis back in middle school, her continued relationship with her mother and how it affects/influences her;
    • Basically more shipping drama with Taichi/Yamato/Sora, or at the very least more focus on Yamato and Sora as a couple;
    • Mimi's life in America, specifically post-9/11 NYC -- although the CD dramas are of dubious canon, at least one of them described her being there during the attack and while it might be a bit too "much" for an anime, I would have liked to see the show explore this;
    • Koushiro just basically continuing to be Koushiro, keeping track of things in the Digital World, keeping in touch with Gennai, maybe see him spend time with his parents;
    • To be honest I was very impressed with Joe's story in Determination so I basically would have liked to see this but stretched out over the course of the show;
    • Takeru learning to write down his thoughts and feelings about his adventures and some of the more traumatic stuff (like losing Patamon back in the day) while Hikari explores photography as a hobby -- these two would be very obviously "into" each other and everyone is pushing them to get into a relationship, except for Daisuke;
    • Speaking of Daisuke, he's probably still crushing on Hikari but a lot of his character arc would involve "letting go" and finally accepting Takeru as the better choice for her;
    • Ken will continue to try to make amends as he carries that guilt with him all the time, maybe show him getting interested in the police force as a young adult, ultimately he REALLY needs to learn to forgive himself and maybe Miyako can help him with this;
    • Miyako's romance with Ken would also be part of the show, but I also would love to explore her tech side, helping out Koushiro, but also seeing her act "girly" with the other female cast members, maybe take a trip to NYC to visit her idol Mimi...I just want to see her explore her own duality and her own complexities;
    • Iori probably wouldn't get much focus since he got a lot of development in 02 and would be the youngest cast member, but I could see his friendship with Ken getting stronger as they discuss the duality of law and order;
    • Just for lulz, I wanna see Mimi and Daisuke attempt to create an Internet cooking show together since they're both interested in food -- V-mon and Palmon assist and it ends up being adorable and hilarious;
    • Yamato, Taichi, Sora, and Koushiro are entered into their school festival/talent show and Yamato has to teach them (and their Digimon!) how to play instruments so they can perform as a band;
    • Takeru and Iori wonder what kind of Digimon Shakkoumon could evolve into;
    • Daisuke's sister, Miyako's siblings, and one or both of Joe's brothers become Chosen Children and they continue to make appearances;
    • Etc...


    Basically, in this version of Tri (or rather the "new Digimon Adventure anime"), Daigo and Maki wouldn't have even been on the scene. The above is just my selfish fanboy version of what I would have loved to see from a new Adventure anime. I love these characters so much and I just want to see them live their lives. Of course since an aspect of the show would also be Digimon learning how to live in harmony with the real world, there would be conflicts and the Chosen Children would have to sometimes engage in battle, but I wouldn't really expect any long overarching enemies or anything like that. In this version of Tri, there is no need for characters like Daigo and Maki.

    There's another possibility, though...one that might actually answer your question:

    2) "Tri is closer to what we've actually ended up with, Daigo and Maki are characters, the story is a more traditional Digimon Adventure story that picks up the pieces that Adventure discarded." In this version, instead of using the concept of the original Chosen Children and the Four Holy Beasts as background for what sets the story into motion, it would focus on the Dark Ocean and Dagomon as core villains. Maybe with a slight horror angle similar to Konaka's episode from 02. I know a lot of people wanted something like this and I'm going to risk sounding like just another random fan, but if Tri really wanted to take a relatively unused concept from Adventure and explore it, they had a perfect one ready and waiting from 02.

    In this version of the story, Daigo would still be their teacher and he would still be undercover as a government agent tracking the actions of the Chosen Children. Maki would still be his partner and ex-girlfriend. But they wouldn't be thematic foils for the kids. They would just be side characters who represent that the world at large is becoming more and more familiar with Digimon. I suppose in this case you don't need two characters, Daigo would be more than enough. Daigo wouldn't reveal his status to the kids until maybe the very end of the show (in this version I'm still considering Tri to be a TV anime and not a film series). He would act as a "guidance counselor" or mentor to the kids in their school days while also helping them out surreptitiously.

    So, in review...

    1) I would have preferred that Tri were a slice-of-life TV anime just about the kids, their hobbies, and their relationships with their Digimon, so Maki and Daigo wouldn't even need to be there; OR...
    2) Daigo would just be an older brother figure to some of the kids and only closer to the end will he reveal that he's part of a government organization tracking the Chosen Children and the threat from the Dark Ocean; Maki could be his partner and ex-girlfriend and we can explore their feelings for one another as the show goes on, or she could be written out entirely.

    I guess it's kind of ridiculous for me to say this, but my ideal versions of Tri have Daigo and Maki not existing or just being relegated to side characters with not a lot of plot relevance. I want Tri to be about the kids first and foremost.

    I would like to say, though, that with the way Tri is going right now...I really can't see a better way for Daigo and Maki to exist than they do right now, given the context of the story that Tri is telling. If they wanted to include two "new" characters with a past that's connected to the Chosen Children that's also connected to the current situation threatening the Digital World, then giving Maki a tragic past related to the Digital World makes sense.

    But it would make a lot MORE sense if we actually got to see them reacting to the news that Maki and Daigo were members of the original Chosen and seeing how they feel about Maki's actions. Maki is indeed a "cautionary tale" as Tetra describes, but so far, the kids themselves are concerned with Meiko and the infection. They still don't know about any of this background stuff and in order for me to truly appreciate the story Tri is trying (lol) to tell, I will need to see the kids react to this information and process it for themselves. I suppose it's good, then, that we still have two movies left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetra Seleno View Post
    Daigo, therefore, represents the other end of the spectrum -- a fairly well-adjusted adult. Even though Maki is the primary subject of that sequence, the scene does a lot to re-establish Daigo's importance as a foil not only to Maki (which had been one of his primary duties thus far), but to the Chosen Children as a whole.

    To be frank, I think focusing on Daigo and Maki's significance in the lore of Adventure (not only as the OG Chosen Children, but that their partners evolved into the Four Holy Beasts) is kind of pointless in the grand scheme of tri, because that reveal isn't about elevating their importance in the mythology or lore of the series, although that is a consequence of the decision. The primary objective of that scene is another thread in tri.'s overarching theme of growing up.
    Two things about this:

    1) Again, it would be better for me as a viewer to see Daigo and Maki as foils with the kids actually being aware of this themselves. I care about the kids. I care about their feelings and their development. If Daigo and Maki are such important thematic foils for them all as possibilities of adulthood, then I need to see the kids face this head-on and reflect on it and TALK about it. This can only be an effective cautionary tale if the kids are made aware of it. Of course we have two films left, so hopefully this will happen.

    2) So I think that the newer Battlestar Galactica show is/was one of the best things on television. I recommended it to a friend and he also wanted to check it out because it's like a modern sci-fi staple. He hated it. When we talked about it, he discussed not liking any of the characters etc., but he also pointed out that he is inherently not interested in certain things like shows set in space, military themes, and "survival stories" -- things that are post-apocalyptic or about the survival of the human race in general. I was hoping that my friend, who is a more spiritual guy, would be able to overlook these things and appreciate the show's spiritual elements, but the premise of the show itself was an instant turn-off for him. I think he missed out on something fantastic, but his perspective is also valid -- if you don't like the premise of something, it's hard to appreciate the message.

    I think that's key here. If I don't like the premise of something, it's hard for me to appreciate the message.

    But at the same time, I do appreciate the message. I'm fine with Tri being about growing up -- I actually appreciate that a lot. But I also think you can tell a story about growing up without having cautionary tales (which, in general, I also tend to dislike as I think it's kind of lazy). Part of growing up is exploring romance. It's growing out of older hobbies and embracing new ones. It's wondering what you want to do in this world and learning about that. It's about taking yourself, examining your behavior, and wondering if it's either okay to continue or to slightly modify things.

    I want to see these kids grow up.

    I want to see them live their lives and reflect on their formative experiences.

    On that note, though, I don't think we can sit around and say "this was the primary goal or objective of this scene" unless you're the writer/director. Maybe you think that the "primary objective" of that scene is to be another thread in Tri's theme of growing up, but since this is such a crucial part of the story and the Adventure lore in general, I feel that what it represents for the lore/mythos kind of takes precedence for me as a viewer. And yes, part of that is because of my bias -- for some reason that even I'm not sure of anymore, I just didn't want Tri to even "go there" in regards to the original Chosen Children -- for some reason, that's just a part of the story from Adventure that I was very happy to keep "in the dark" so to speak. And because that's exactly what happened (the story "going there"), it's hard for me to separate my emotions from this and look at it critically in a fair way.

    Yes, Daigo and Maki represent two possibilities that the kids could grow up into. I understand that completely. I just hope that this information is made clear to the kids soon, otherwise it's kind of pointless. In the meantime, though, the reason why they represent this is BECAUSE they're the original Chosen Children, so you can't say that focusing on their importance in the lore is "pointless" because without that importance in the lore, their thematic connection to the kids really fizzles out.
    Last edited by AquaVersus; 06-15-2017 at 07:04 AM.

  4. #14
    Junior Commander Tetra Seleno's Avatar
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    Welcome back to the forum AquaVersus! I'm only going to respond to your first point, because I think your second point has a lot to do with personal preferences and our own expectations for what tri. could have been / should have been, and I think that's a great topic worthy of its own thread at some point in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by AquaVersus View Post
    1) Again, it would be better for me as a viewer to see Daigo and Maki as foils with the kids actually being aware of this themselves. I care about the kids. I care about their feelings and their development. If Daigo and Maki are such important thematic foils for them all as possibilities of adulthood, then I need to see the kids face this head-on and reflect on it and TALK about it. This can only be an effective cautionary tale if the kids are made aware of it. Of course we have two films left, so hopefully this will happen.

    [...]

    Yes, Daigo and Maki represent two possibilities that the kids could grow up into. I understand that completely. I just hope that this information is made clear to the kids soon, otherwise it's kind of pointless. In the meantime, though, the reason why they represent this is BECAUSE they're the original Chosen Children, so you can't say that focusing on their importance in the lore is "pointless" because without that importance in the lore, their thematic connection to the kids really fizzles out.
    I agree, that despite the OVAs using Maki and Daigo as foils to the Chosen, the series has had frustratingly little opportunity for, say, Taichi to actually have conflict with Maki and Daigo. I think that speaks to a bigger problem that tri. has, where the audience is privy to a lot of information that the characters don't. YMMV about how well that trope can be used in other fictional works, but in tri. it has become almost laughable how the main characters are in the dark about all of the machinations happening behind the scenes. If Daigo and Maki's history is not revealed to the Chosen in Part 5, much less Maki's culpability in facilitating the reboot in the first place, then it's a big failure on the writers to have all these interesting scenes and character moments, but not unify them in a compelling manner.

    I also will confess that in the 17 years since I watched the Adventure finale, I have never really cared about the identities nor history of the 'first five', so I was more surprised that they actually incorporated that line from 01x53 at all into the plot of tri. in a not-insignificant way, and it's clear from your comments that you have cared about that piece of lore over the years, so I understand where our own personal investments in the franchise are at odds here. At the time that I wrote that comment, I was really frustrated at the Tumblr discourse fixating on the first 5 minutes of Loss, and not the parts of Loss that I found most interesting / compelling, so I may have been projecting some of my own grievances onto the discussion there.
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  5. #15
    I'm a Maniac Kai32's Avatar
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    so fare thought of tri is how will this all lead up to the epilog of the ending of 02 is still going to be the end result. how does this? lead to that. do these even lead to Joe becoming a Digimon doctor a tai and Agumon be negotiators for the digital and human world.

  6. #16
    Super Moderator TMS's Avatar
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    I don't see what that has to do with the topic.
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  7. #17
    I come from the net Jay Ukyou's Avatar
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    Welcome back, AquaVersus. I appreciate getting to read such a well-thought-out rundown of your personal preferences. It's clear you're very introspective about the media you consume.

    I think it's worth asking what other kinds of media, specifically anime, that you consume. Because while I understand the desire to see the Adventure kids explored in-depth, I can't see how you ever thought that a completely vanilla slice-of-life anime was ever going to be a realistic possibility for a franchise about transforming monsters...

    I will admit my own biases here, as well. I absolutely abhor romance plots in general, but ESPECIALLY in children's shows, where the development is facile at best. And slice-of-life shows can't seem to escape from romance plots as a crutch to create the conflicts of their plot. If Tri had gone this direction, I think I would have literally wept.

    This isn't to say that romance plots cannot be done well. But anime in general is not good at it. And children's anime is absolutely offensively terrible at it.
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    I'm honestly surprised by the not-negative feedback, lmao. I'm very particular about the way I express myself and it's gotten me in trouble more than once in the past so I'm happy nobody misunderstood anything. Thanks for all of the "welcome back" posts btw!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetra Seleno View Post
    I agree, that despite the OVAs using Maki and Daigo as foils to the Chosen, the series has had frustratingly little opportunity for, say, Taichi to actually have conflict with Maki and Daigo. I think that speaks to a bigger problem that tri. has, where the audience is privy to a lot of information that the characters don't. YMMV about how well that trope can be used in other fictional works, but in tri. it has become almost laughable how the main characters are in the dark about all of the machinations happening behind the scenes. If Daigo and Maki's history is not revealed to the Chosen in Part 5, much less Maki's culpability in facilitating the reboot in the first place, then it's a big failure on the writers to have all these interesting scenes and character moments, but not unify them in a compelling manner.

    I also will confess that in the 17 years since I watched the Adventure finale, I have never really cared about the identities nor history of the 'first five', so I was more surprised that they actually incorporated that line from 01x53 at all into the plot of tri. in a not-insignificant way, and it's clear from your comments that you have cared about that piece of lore over the years, so I understand where our own personal investments in the franchise are at odds here. At the time that I wrote that comment, I was really frustrated at the Tumblr discourse fixating on the first 5 minutes of Loss, and not the parts of Loss that I found most interesting / compelling, so I may have been projecting some of my own grievances onto the discussion there.
    I guess it's just been difficult for me to separate my feelings about all of this. I like Tri for what it is, and of course I love Digimon and especially the kids from Adventure...but at the same time, I have a few concerns with the writing choices thus far, and everything you said about keeping the kids in the dark has been a big issue for me -- and therefore has made it difficult for me to truly care about/appreciate characters like Daigo and Maki when I'm frankly still disappointed that nobody has said Daisuke's name yet, for example. It's my own bias, lmao. But we'll see what happens in part 5. Maybe in a few years when the story's done and I'm more removed from the whole thing, I can look back and appreciate characters like Maki and Daigo for their roles in the story presented.

    And I can understand being disappointed at the Tumblr discourse about the Loss flashback. That was a big deal for a lot of people, and Loss was about so much more than that. To point out something, though: I also never cared about the identities or history of the "first five" just like you never did. And that's why I'm disappointed Tri chose to go there, because it's something that I feel worked better as a mystery or as a throw-away world-building line. So we actually have the same feelings about them as they were used in Adventure, but different feelings about how they're being used in Tri. That's very interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Ukyou View Post
    Welcome back, AquaVersus. I appreciate getting to read such a well-thought-out rundown of your personal preferences. It's clear you're very introspective about the media you consume.

    I think it's worth asking what other kinds of media, specifically anime, that you consume. Because while I understand the desire to see the Adventure kids explored in-depth, I can't see how you ever thought that a completely vanilla slice-of-life anime was ever going to be a realistic possibility for a franchise about transforming monsters...

    I will admit my own biases here, as well. I absolutely abhor romance plots in general, but ESPECIALLY in children's shows, where the development is facile at best. And slice-of-life shows can't seem to escape from romance plots as a crutch to create the conflicts of their plot. If Tri had gone this direction, I think I would have literally wept.

    This isn't to say that romance plots cannot be done well. But anime in general is not good at it. And children's anime is absolutely offensively terrible at it.
    Yeah...I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking, either. It was definitely not a realistic possibility. I suppose my "realistic-ideal" Tri version would be a TV series that starts off with a slice-of-life "arc" with peppered hints of a new threat, that then takes on a more adventurous tone as this threat presents itself.

    You're right about romance as it's used in anime and children's shows. I felt that it might have been different in Tri's case because these are pre-established characters with their own histories and relationships laid out in previous shows. Romance plots don't always work well, especially in kids' shows, because I feel like the writers have to struggle between developing the characters vs. developing the "relationship" sort of as its own character, if that makes any sense. I guess I was hoping that some of that work would've been done already -- for example, Miyako is already established as having a crush on Ken, so a story about her would have more to do with her own complexities as a person (specifically as a Japanese girl who's interested in STEM). I would love to see their relationship develop -- Miyako accepting her own duality and Ken accepting the "duality" of his history (the changing role from oppressive, cruel ruler to kind-hearted, gentle hero) -- in conjunction with how they see themselves and what it means for them both.

    But I think I can see your point...stuff like that is probably beyond most anime writers.

    As for other anime I consume...well, one of my favorite titles from back in the day is .hack//SIGN -- a lot of people say it's boring and slow, but I absolutely love it. There is a story and a mystery, but it's basically about the characters sitting down and having conversations with each other against gorgeous backdrops and a stunning soundtrack. Other anime titles that I truly love are Cardcaptor Sakura, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Evangelion, and Serial Experiments Lain. I feel like I just outed myself as one of "those" types of anime fans -- I believe some YouTuber, maybe Digibro, made a video about "the most boring taste in anime" and the essential message was something like "you only like these shows because they were subversive late-90s shows that everyone likes" and I'm not sure how true that is, but...

    Anyway, I guess only Cardcaptor Sakura (out of those titles) can really be said to have any slice-of-life elements -- in the case of CCS, I feel like all of the magic and all of the adventures work extremely well with the "mundane" adventures of Sakura's daily life. For some shows that are more strongly slice of life, I've enjoyed recent shows such as Gabriel Dropout and Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid. Also, Polar Bear Cafe is lovely. I'll think of more later, lmao.

    EDIT: A good way for me to TLDR it for me is that there is an abundance of promotional artwork out there for Tri, and most of it presents the kids in fun, silly situations like having a beach day or cooking chocolate for Valentine's/White Day, etc. It makes me sad because that's basically what I wanted to see in the show/film series itself, lmao.
    Last edited by AquaVersus; 06-22-2017 at 02:32 PM.

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