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Thread: Digimon Adventure tri: Part 4 Loss Discussion

  1. #101
    I come from the net Jay Ukyou's Avatar
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    Some thoughts on the lost memories of the Digimon. For one, I'm VERY glad they didn't get them back yet (And I kind of hope they stay gone, but I somewhat doubt it...)

    Even if the 'bond' between partners was repaired easily, the actual -memories- are still gone. For something like a Digimon, who gets reborn when they die constantly... That's as close to death as this world allows. The kids' partners all essentially -died- and got replaced with reasonable facsimiles. That's pretty gutsy for this show.

    Now, you can argue that the kids aren't taking it that way and since the facsimiles are all basically unchanged in persona, there's no actual 'Loss'. But I think that's why they spent 3 'episodes' dragging out Piyomon's acceptance of Sora. The cost for losing in Kokuhaku had to be paid. And Sora was the one who would be affected by the loss of the -memories- rather than merely the -presence- of her partner the most. Takeru certainly has a complex about losing his partner, but the bond they share is more innocent and emotional rather than based on any kind of shared history. Same for most of the kids (I think only Yamato has an argument for having a more 'shared experience' based relationship with Gabumon, due to how much he actually confided in him). Sora's sole character trait is how much she doesn't share her pain with anyone except Piyomon, so all those moments built together mean a whole lot more than just the unconditional support most of the Digimon partners offer just by -existing-. I think it was the right choice. I think if they spent the whole movie showing us the cost of losing their memories with all 8 kids (7 really, Hikari gets a net positive here), they would have had a very dour and uninteresting Digimon story indeed. And I appreciated the bits of humor, they were some of the best parts this time around.

    Re:Yggdrasil:
    I feel like there's this stigma in academia and in the reviewing world that 'crossover' stories are inherently awful and should never be taken seriously. I hate that stigma. And I feel like it's so prevalent that there's no one that even attempts to make GOOD dimension-hopping stories. That is such a shame, there is no story element that is ALWAYS inherently bad, and I feel like 'crossover' stories shouldn't have to die on the pyre of public opinion where there's so much potential there.
    Yggdrasil represents this crossover element in a big way in the Digimon fandom, almost as much as Ryo/Milleniumon did way back before Savers. Now that Yggdrasil is the face of the idea of the multiverse in the franchise, there's so much backlash simply at what Yggdrasil represents. I know some of it is earned due to some questionable appearances (and some unquestionably bad ones), but I don't think the way tri is handling it so far is poorly done.
    I theorize, along with many in this thread, that Yggdrasil (and probably Meicoomon and the Royal Knights) are from another dimension in the Digimon Multiverse. The earliest movies somewhat hint at this, and Meicoomon's innate ability to open distortions, as well as Yggdrasil's previous appearances hinting at his multiversality, seem to suggest that's a strong possibility. Some people seem to hate this idea out of hand. I'm personally fascinated by what they may do with it. We don't often see multiversal threats in the Digimon franchise despite it being a fairly consistent undercurrent in the games and manga. This would be only the second time the anime deals with it directly. Now while the first time (in Hunters' finale) was pretty much the epitome of why people say crossover stories don't work, the uses of it in the games and manga were much more deftly handled. Cyber Sleuth, Re: Digitize Decode, and the Xros Wars manga are often cited as among the best the Digimon Franchise has to offer and each of them featured plots that involved the multiverse/crossover elements.

    I think Tri just might be up to the task. As others have also pointed out, they've already positioned Yggdrasil in a new light from its standard role of "tyrannical enslavement is for the betterment of peace". Instead, it exists in opposition to the Homeostasis. And with the crazed Gennai as its sole speaking avatar, there's a number of directions Yggdrasil could take as a main villain... (Or even secret ally? I still think Homeostasis's slavish devotion to balance is far more menacing in its own way...)

    Re: Original Chosen Children, Maki, and Daigo
    I don't see how anyone can watch Sora going through three episodes of Piyomon's unintended abuse but still come out stronger for it; and then see Maki go through 1 scene of it with Bakumon to only basically crack; and not realize that the entire purpose of the Original Chosen Children plot point being revived was EXACTLY for the purpose of showing the parallels between the kids' growth and the possibilities the adults represent.

    This isn't just some fanfic wank to devalue everyone's pet theories about a two-minute conversation from one episode towards the end of season 1. There is actual narrative purpose in developing the characters of Daigo and Maki, and they deftly managed to tie it all into that infamous bit of lore that people have been obsessing over for literally two decades.

    That's not fanfic, that's writing skill I genuinely applaud. (...or at the very least, it's GOOD fanfic, depending on how you use the term.)

  2. #102
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    Jay Ukyou, I really appreciate your perspective! You made some interesting points; at the same time, I'm not sure if you understood the criticisms that some people are making about this movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Ukyou View Post
    Sora's sole character trait is how much she doesn't share her pain with anyone except Piyomon, so all those moments built together mean a whole lot more than just the unconditional support most of the Digimon partners offer just by -existing-. I think it was the right choice. I think if they spent the whole movie showing us the cost of losing their memories with all 8 kids (7 really, Hikari gets a net positive here), they would have had a very dour and uninteresting Digimon story indeed.
    I think it was a good idea to have Sora as the character with this issue in this film, but the problem is that Piyomon's mistrust is what's overblown. All of the Digimon were initially distrusting of the humans but I think Piyomon's hesitation was dragged out way too long, only for it to be resolved rather quickly and without much gravitas. Piyomon's reasons for not trusting Sora applied to the other humans as well ("I don't remember you" etc.) but the other Digimon didn't have this problem. This was an issue on Piyomon's end.

    Yggdrasil represents this crossover element in a big way in the Digimon fandom, almost as much as Ryo/Milleniumon did way back before Savers. Now that Yggdrasil is the face of the idea of the multiverse in the franchise, there's so much backlash simply at what Yggdrasil represents.
    I think you're misunderstanding people's issues re: Yggdrasil in Adventure. I didn't even consider a crossover or multiverse aspect to this inclusion -- I would actually welcome that concept.

    My issue with Yggdrasil is that I was simply hoping for a unique villain for Adventure, and I feel like Yggdrasil is a bit overplayed. This was one of the few issues I had with Cyber Sleuth: overall it was an awesome game with unique enemies, but once they started bringing in the Royal Knights and Yggdrasil, it all felt very tired and repetitive. I remember thinking, "Oh so now some of the Royal Knights are going to fight each other, Yggdrasil is either being vague or going crazy or is infected or whatever, okay got it." I don't want the same thing to happen in Adventure.

    Re: Original Chosen Children, Maki, and Daigo
    I don't see how anyone can watch Sora going through three episodes of Piyomon's unintended abuse but still come out stronger for it; and then see Maki go through 1 scene of it with Bakumon to only basically crack; and not realize that the entire purpose of the Original Chosen Children plot point being revived was EXACTLY for the purpose of showing the parallels between the kids' growth and the possibilities the adults represent.

    This isn't just some fanfic wank to devalue everyone's pet theories about a two-minute conversation from one episode towards the end of season 1. There is actual narrative purpose in developing the characters of Daigo and Maki, and they deftly managed to tie it all into that infamous bit of lore that people have been obsessing over for literally two decades.

    That's not fanfic, that's writing skill I genuinely applaud. (...or at the very least, it's GOOD fanfic, depending on how you use the term.)
    Firstly, one main issue is that "the entire purpose of the Original Chosen Children plot point being revived" is NOT AT ALL exactly for the purpose of showing the parallel between the kids' growth and the possibilities that adults represent. That is one possible purpose, certainly, and it expands upon some of Maki's dialogue in Determination, but it *feels* like that plot point was revived just so fans of the show could get excited about finally getting some answers re: the original Chosen Children.

    The story does not exist in a vacuum. The writers/producers/directors/etc. are making conscious choices about what kind of story to tell and how to tell said story. They could still tell a story about showing the parallels between the kids' growth and the chaotic possibilities that adults represent WITHOUT relying on the original Chosen Children as fodder for said story.

    Now people WON'T be obsessing over that minute or two of lore like they have been for two decades, and I think that's a little bit sad.

    I admit that I like the concept of the original Chosen Children but I was hoping they would never be revealed or explored so people could continue coming up with their own ideas. I particularly dislike the concept of their partners becoming the four holy beasts because it feels convenient and it's kind of a boring explanation or origin for those entities (in my opinion, anyway -- I know this was in the novelization). I strongly dislike Daigo and Nishijima being two members of the original Chosen Children. It would be one thing if the story just made references to the original Chosen, but to actually have two characters from that group just feels wrong to me.

    It also changes the context of some of Daigo and Maki's earlier conversations. Daigo keeps telling Maki that they should tell everything to the Chosen Children and for three movies now, we were assuming this meant telling them about what happened to the 02 kids. Instead, we now find out it means revealing their status as Chosen to the kids.

    I guess basically, I'm still just a bit peeved that the story is going in this direction -- Yggdrasil, possible Royal Knights, original Chosen Children -- at the expense of more familiar characters that the story is literally going out of its way to ignore or write off.

    It DOES feel like a bad fanfic. It's like a bad fanfic written by someone who couldn't stand 02 or its characters and wanted to introduce their OC and his/her imaginary boyfriend/girlfriend as members of the original Chosen Children who were so special and awesome that their partners became Qinglongmon and co. This fanfic author brings back enemies that looked cool/menacing (Imperialdramon, Mugendramon, MetalSeadramon) and tries to incorporate the broader Digimon meta-franchise (Alphamon, Jesmon/Hackmon) but can't seem to find the ability to write decent dialogue for these enemies or even reveal the gravity of these situations to the audience. It's getting a bit frustrating.

    That said, I didn't think part 4 was awful or anything like that. It's just definitely starting to feel like a fanfic -- I love nostalgia and the first three films range from good to awesome in my opinion, but this is starting to feel a bit excessive and even surface-level.

  3. #103
    Junior Commander Tetra Seleno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Ukyou View Post

    Re: Original Chosen Children, Maki, and Daigo
    I don't see how anyone can watch Sora going through three episodes of Piyomon's unintended abuse but still come out stronger for it; and then see Maki go through 1 scene of it with Bakumon to only basically crack; and not realize that the entire purpose of the Original Chosen Children plot point being revived was EXACTLY for the purpose of showing the parallels between the kids' growth and the possibilities the adults represent.

    This isn't just some fanfic wank to devalue everyone's pet theories about a two-minute conversation from one episode towards the end of season 1. There is actual narrative purpose in developing the characters of Daigo and Maki, and they deftly managed to tie it all into that infamous bit of lore that people have been obsessing over for literally two decades.

    That's not fanfic, that's writing skill I genuinely applaud. (...or at the very least, it's GOOD fanfic, depending on how you use the term.)
    This. Jay, you nailed it. An observant viewer of Determination and Confession could pick up on the subtle hints that Maki represents the kind of adult that the children could grow up into if events continue along their course. Couldn't have said it better myself.
    Check out my Digimon blog for more Digimon-related analysis and commentary.

  4. #104
    I come from the net Jay Ukyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaVersus View Post
    Jay Ukyou, I really appreciate your perspective! You made some interesting points; at the same time, I'm not sure if you understood the criticisms that some people are making about this movie.
    I understand the criticisms people are making. I am not addressing all criticisms at the same time. Clearly your problems with the film are somewhat different than some of the other posters. I'll try to address the things you brought up here directly to avoid you thinking I'm misunderstanding anything.

    I think it was a good idea to have Sora as the character with this issue in this film, but the problem is that Piyomon's mistrust is what's overblown. All of the Digimon were initially distrusting of the humans but I think Piyomon's hesitation was dragged out way too long, only for it to be resolved rather quickly and without much gravitas. Piyomon's reasons for not trusting Sora applied to the other humans as well ("I don't remember you" etc.) but the other Digimon didn't have this problem. This was an issue on Piyomon's end.
    I think it should be noted that the subs for this are a little clunky. Piyomon's manner of speaking is somewhat childish by default and a lot of her lines carry this subtext of "You're being too friendly, it's unnerving when I can't remember any of the things you're claiming." I agree the resolution for this was a bit abrupt. Sora risks her life for Piyomon twice over and suddenly Piyomon just goes "Well, okay, I guess you aren't friendly in a suspicious way, you're just genuinely caring."
    But I feel like this isn't some alien mindset. Maybe you're an overly caring person yourself and haven't experienced it, but when someone I barely know starts making extremely friendly overtures to me, it comes off as insincere, suspicious, or even sociopathic, depending on the degree. I hurt for Sora, but I definitely understood Piyomon's point of view.

    Yggdrasil represents this crossover element in a big way in the Digimon fandom, almost as much as Ryo/Milleniumon did way back before Savers. Now that Yggdrasil is the face of the idea of the multiverse in the franchise, there's so much backlash simply at what Yggdrasil represents.
    I think you're misunderstanding people's issues re: Yggdrasil in Adventure. I didn't even consider a crossover or multiverse aspect to this inclusion -- I would actually welcome that concept.

    My issue with Yggdrasil is that I was simply hoping for a unique villain for Adventure, and I feel like Yggdrasil is a bit overplayed. This was one of the few issues I had with Cyber Sleuth: overall it was an awesome game with unique enemies, but once they started bringing in the Royal Knights and Yggdrasil, it all felt very tired and repetitive. I remember thinking, "Oh so now some of the Royal Knights are going to fight each other, Yggdrasil is either being vague or going crazy or is infected or whatever, okay got it." I don't want the same thing to happen in Adventure.
    That is a fair and measured criticism and I can agree that a new threat would probably be the more 'safe' bet, narratively. I just think that Tri is up to the challenge of using Yggdrasil in a new and interesting way from previous lackluster anime appearances. Especially seeing crazed Gennai as his avatar.

    It is worth noting that I think you are possibly the only person on the forum who hates Yggdrasil but welcomes the idea of the multiversal stuff. So I feel discussing the multiverse stuff was still very relevant to many of the posters here.


    Firstly, one main issue is that "the entire purpose of the Original Chosen Children plot point being revived" is NOT AT ALL exactly for the purpose of showing the parallel between the kids' growth and the possibilities that adults represent. That is one possible purpose, certainly, and it expands upon some of Maki's dialogue in Determination, but it *feels* like that plot point was revived just so fans of the show could get excited about finally getting some answers re: the original Chosen Children.
    What about it makes it *feel* like that to you? Just because they addressed it at all?

    They could still tell a story about showing the parallels between the kids' growth and the chaotic possibilities that adults represent WITHOUT relying on the original Chosen Children as fodder for said story.
    That sounds like a MUCH sloppier narrative. The Chosen Children are in a very unique place in their world, there are no other adults for them to model themselves after. No one else has any kind of experience like them. The original series dropped a seed of an idea that some adults like this DO exist, and you think passing up expanding on that opportunity is the correct narrative choice? I honestly don't think even you believe that.

    Now people WON'T be obsessing over that minute or two of lore like they have been for two decades, and I think that's a little bit sad.
    This sounds like what you're actually lamenting. Which is fine, that's fair, but using these characters gels really well with the themes Tri seems to be wanting to explore.

    I guess basically, I'm still just a bit peeved that the story is going in this direction -- Yggdrasil, possible Royal Knights, original Chosen Children -- at the expense of more familiar characters that the story is literally going out of its way to ignore or write off.
    This is also a very valid feeling. I also think that the treatment of the 02 kids in this story is pretty awful and I am really hoping there's going to be a satisfying answer to the mysteries around them so far, but it's looking bleak. I don't think the Original Chosen Children plotline nor Maki/Daigo are to blame for that, though. Even with the 02 kids around, I would want Maki and Daigo to exist as character foils for the main 8 (or 12) Chosen Children.


    It DOES feel like a bad fanfic. It's like a bad fanfic written by someone who couldn't stand 02 or its characters and wanted to introduce their OC and his/her imaginary boyfriend/girlfriend as members of the original Chosen Children who were so special and awesome that their partners became Qinglongmon and co. This fanfic author brings back enemies that looked cool/menacing (Imperialdramon, Mugendramon, MetalSeadramon) and tries to incorporate the broader Digimon meta-franchise (Alphamon, Jesmon/Hackmon) but can't seem to find the ability to write decent dialogue for these enemies or even reveal the gravity of these situations to the audience. It's getting a bit frustrating.
    In the interest of being civil, I will simply say I disagree without going into a long tirade snarking about the characters and events of 02 also seeming like bad super-special OCs and clumsy dialogue...
    I do understand your frustration, but I also question your definition of what counts as 'feeling like a fanfic'.

    Re: Things that I think people SHOULD be complaining about in Soushitsu
    What the hell is with the jump cuts? When Sora and Piyomon are arguing in the desert, Sora starts crying, Piyomon has a reaction shot, and then "Oh Snap, there's Meiko!" they are both suddenly just standing over her. No transition whatsoever. I had to check my media player to make sure it hadn't jumped.

    Same thing happened in the battle against MetalSeadramon. Suddenly Taichi and Yamato are just so deep underwater they can't swim back up. So they sink to the bottom, collapsed from lack of air, and then they sit up look at eachother and think about it for a while, and then have some hallucinations, and then Gabumon and Agumon I guess start swimming down to them and then BAM! Everything's okay, no one has drowned. I cringed during every second of this scene.

    Takeru hurting his leg was a plot point that got forgotten really quick. I guess those leaves are literally digital magic. The entire scene with him and Elecmon was really pointless and I'm angry they didn't do more with the time the characters had split up from eachother.

  5. #105
    Junior Commander ShikaSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaVersus View Post
    I admit that I like the concept of the original Chosen Children but I was hoping they would never be revealed or explored so people could continue coming up with their own ideas. I particularly dislike the concept of their partners becoming the four holy beasts because it feels convenient and it's kind of a boring explanation or origin for those entities (in my opinion, anyway -- I know this was in the novelization). I strongly dislike Daigo and Nishijima being two members of the original Chosen Children. It would be one thing if the story just made references to the original Chosen, but to actually have two characters from that group just feels wrong to me.
    I think people think too much of the Four Holy Beasts. Why is it a problem for them to have such origin? They're simply guardian deities, not "metadigital" entities like Homeostasis, so in my opinion it's perfectly adequate for them to come from common Digimon. As the first saviours of the Digital World, it makes them look more legendary, as well as elevate their human partners status. Look at Tamers, for example, the FHB don't have an extraordinary origin story, they were simply one of the first Digimon to reach the Ultimate stage.

    My biggest peeve with the whole "original Chosen Children in tri" is having them fight the Dark Masters. We know, based on 02, that they're the ones who seal away the FHB before Adventure happened, so it's seems pointless to have them fight. Any purpose for the original Children's adventure is gone because the audience knows they did not really defeat the Dark Masters, which also undervalues the FHB.

    Making Maki and Daigo part of the original bunch is not a bad idea. It would make sense for them to be the Adventure bunch's guides since they have experienced the same things, but unfortunately that was not the case in tri., and that makes their actions (hiding their past) seem illogical. You'd think Taichi and co. would be more willing to pay attention to them if knew who they were. It wouldn't even go against Maki's plan so I really don't know why they hid it.
    Last edited by ShikaSS; 02-26-2017 at 07:05 AM.

  6. #106
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    This was a very interesting response and I admit, it made me reconsider some things!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Ukyou View Post
    I think it should be noted that the subs for this are a little clunky. Piyomon's manner of speaking is somewhat childish by default and a lot of her lines carry this subtext of "You're being too friendly, it's unnerving when I can't remember any of the things you're claiming." I agree the resolution for this was a bit abrupt. Sora risks her life for Piyomon twice over and suddenly Piyomon just goes "Well, okay, I guess you aren't friendly in a suspicious way, you're just genuinely caring."
    But I feel like this isn't some alien mindset. Maybe you're an overly caring person yourself and haven't experienced it, but when someone I barely know starts making extremely friendly overtures to me, it comes off as insincere, suspicious, or even sociopathic, depending on the degree. I hurt for Sora, but I definitely understood Piyomon's point of view.
    Oh, I feel the same way about people coming off as insincere or suspicious when they're overly friendly -- but I just wanted some more of Piyomon's perspective. Like I said, none of the other Digimon had this problem (or at least had this problem for as long as Piyomon did), so what was the reason behind it? Was it Sora coming on too strongly? I don't even think she particularly did that though...

    That is a fair and measured criticism and I can agree that a new threat would probably be the more 'safe' bet, narratively. I just think that Tri is up to the challenge of using Yggdrasil in a new and interesting way from previous lackluster anime appearances. Especially seeing crazed Gennai as his avatar.

    It is worth noting that I think you are possibly the only person on the forum who hates Yggdrasil but welcomes the idea of the multiversal stuff. So I feel discussing the multiverse stuff was still very relevant to many of the posters here.
    You know what, if Tri can make Yggdrasil different or new/interesting, then I would be all for that.

    And for the record, I don't hate Yggdrasil. I just think the concept is a bit tired by this point, but I guess that also means I need to accept that Yggdrasil is basically a part of the larger Digimon meta-franchise overall, and that I can expect to see it more often.

    What about it makes it *feel* like that to you? Just because they addressed it at all?
    Honestly, that's one reason. And it's not a fair reason so I can admit that. There have been thousands of fanfics since 1999 or so about the original Chosen Children so to see Adventure finally explore this concept after all these years kind of makes me worried it'll turn out like them.

    A more valid reason why it feels that way: the original Chosen Children having their partners become the Holy Beasts just feels super convenient. There's also the notion of "the original Chosen Children were so special" that permeates throughout the fandom, and having their partners become the Holy Beasts only cements this further. Something like that is something that I would expect to see in a fanfiction -- which doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad narrative choice, and like I said, I know it already happened in the novelization. I guess what I'm trying to say is that lots of fans have been wanting to explore the original Chosen Children, and Tri is giving these fans what they want -- and now look what we're stuck with in the official Tri canon. We have Triceramon evolving into Qinglongmon (not confirmed on-screen but it's not hard to figure out which partner evolved into which Holy Beast after seeing Orochimon). I think that's just an awful evolutionary choice, lmao.

    On the other hand, this wasn't entirely bad. Like I said earlier, I love the fact that Tri not only brings LoaderLeomon into the franchise but makes him evolve into Baihumon. That's great!

    That sounds like a MUCH sloppier narrative. The Chosen Children are in a very unique place in their world, there are no other adults for them to model themselves after. No one else has any kind of experience like them. The original series dropped a seed of an idea that some adults like this DO exist, and you think passing up expanding on that opportunity is the correct narrative choice? I honestly don't think even you believe that.
    I will admit that I just didn't think of it like that before, and now I can see where you're coming from. I guess then my issue is larger than this. When I think about it that way, that is definitely a fair way of using the original Chosen -- I just wish that we had more time to really get into it and explore this concept beyond what we've already gotten. Do you think 6 films with the way they've been structured and paced is the best format to deliver this kind of story?

    EDIT: Don't you think it's possible to have a story in which the characters DO have to face the fact that there are no adults like them, and they have to figure out for themselves how to live in the world without having either role models or examples to avoid (Maki, I suppose)? I don't exactly want a cautionary tale here.

    I will also admit that a lot of my issues so far kind of reveal my issues with Tri in general, as a concept. I have indeed been enjoying the films but I'm not gonna lie, I definitely had a different idea of what Tri might have looked like when it was first announced. I think we all did, to a degree. From the very beginning, I would have made very different choices about the overall story, the themes they want to explore, etc. But I think that's for another thread.

    At the same time, thank you for helping me to realize this.

    This sounds like what you're actually lamenting. Which is fine, that's fair, but using these characters gels really well with the themes Tri seems to be wanting to explore.
    Yeah I guess that was a big issue and I should just be honest about it. I didn't have any of my own ideas about the original Chosen so it's not like I'm thinking "my ideas and head-canon are ruined now!" or anything silly like that, lol. I just liked how they remained a mystery for so long.

    You're correct, it does gel really well with the themes that Tri wants to explore -- in which case, I think maybe my issue is the themes that Tri wants to explore. To be honest, I was kind of hoping it would be more of a bridge between 02 and the epilogue. I was looking forward to seeing Ken and Miyako starting a romance, or seeing Takeru begin to write (we do get a glimpse of this with his Chosen Children blog!), etc. We do get glimpses, like I said -- Taichi in the entire first movie lines up SO WELL with what we know about him in the future, Mimi keeps sharing weird food with everyone...but I was hoping for all of that magnified. A slice-of-life TV show with these characters and their Digimon exploring their lives and their future, with some battles thrown in.

    Maybe have Daisuke and Mimi get some screentime together as they explore cooking and ramen recipes, you know? Establish some friendships and more integration between the 12 Chosen. (EDIT: I guess that would also count as feeling like a fanfic in some people's minds...interesting how I'm okay with one but not the other.)

    So I guess these are just my own expectations and issues, and wow I didn't realize I was such a big 02 fan/apologist until just now. I think I need to learn how to forgive these films for writing off some of my favorite characters because they are obviously not telling the story I want them to tell -- but you're right, that doesn't mean that the story is bad at all. I'm actually really grateful you helped me understand this.

    In the interest of being civil, I will simply say I disagree without going into a long tirade snarking about the characters and events of 02 also seeming like bad super-special OCs and clumsy dialogue...
    I'm all for civility! And to be fair, I agree with you about 02 -- a lot of it also felt fanfic-y to me, and it has plenty of flaws. I prefer Adventure over Adventure 02, but I also consider them two parts of a whole. So I don't disagree with you here. I guess maybe I was hoping that Tri would sort of rectify some of the mistakes that 02 made?

    I do understand your frustration, but I also question your definition of what counts as 'feeling like a fanfic'.
    I suppose something "feels like a fanfic" if I can type something into Google like "original DigiDestined fanfic" (I used the English term as that's probably more commonly used) and the first result is a fanfic from 2014. It's a topic that fans have been exploring non-stop in their creative outlets since it was first introduced, even 15 years (!) after it was introduced.

    So to simplify, something feels like a fanfic to me if it explores concepts or stories that fans have often or consistently been writing fanfiction about. I feel like the big crossover at the end of Xros Wars is also very fanfic-y to me, and to be honest, so do many of the Mimi and Koushiro moments seen in Tri so far.

    Is that the movie's fault, or even the writers' fault? No, not at all. And I keep saying that the flashback scene itself was well-done and I think it introduced some good ideas, so like you said, at least it's not on the same level as bad or egregiously offensive fanfiction. I think I can revise my opinion to that level at the very least, lol.
    Last edited by AquaVersus; 02-26-2017 at 07:55 AM.

  7. #107
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    It is a movie that when it ends you are like "what the f*ck, that was all?". But if you rewatch it and analyze it better is a gem. Seriously.
    One thing I hated generally in Tri: They have almost half a year to prepare a movie and that movie could have more screen time so some things could develop better. But no, they prefer to make an 1 hour movie. And cause of that the all movie seems rushed and weird-paced.

  8. #108
    I come from the net Jay Ukyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaVersus View Post
    This was a very interesting response and I admit, it made me reconsider some things!
    Quoted because this is the most surprising thing I've ever heard on a Digimon forum. People actually listening to each other and trying to learn something from a discussion where we both don't agree.

    Oh, I feel the same way about people coming off as insincere or suspicious when they're overly friendly -- but I just wanted some more of Piyomon's perspective. Like I said, none of the other Digimon had this problem (or at least had this problem for as long as Piyomon did), so what was the reason behind it? Was it Sora coming on too strongly? I don't even think she particularly did that though...
    Honestly, I'm torn on this issue. Because I see your point about how the other digimon didn't have any issues and Sora wasn't REALLY being all that forward (though she was pushy enough, especially by Japanese standards).
    But on the other hand, you could read this extreme reaction as Piyomon's relationship with Sora being the one relationship in the group that ACTUALLY was built on her and Sora's shared experiences, rather than a natural chemistry. And I admit I want to do this since I find it fascinating, and I've never had a reason to find anything about Sora or Piyomon fascinating before.
    The more I think about it, the more convinced I am of this being the case too. Takeru seems like the one who would have the most extreme reaction to his partner's past being -dead-, but instead he simply seems content that Patamon -exists-. Their bond is based on just being there for eachother, not in the actual shared conversations nor any information Patamon learned while they were together. It's just about unconditional support.
    However, we learn that Sora is someone who keeps everything to herself, confiding in only Piyomon. All her darkest fears and concerns. Without those moments of confidence, where Sora showed his weaknesses to Piyomon, their bond just doesn't exist. So their past together is actually important. And it took... a couple hours to overcome that! (I agree that the movie isn't perfect...)

    A more valid reason why it feels that way: the original Chosen Children having their partners become the Holy Beasts just feels super convenient. There's also the notion of "the original Chosen Children were so special" that permeates throughout the fandom, and having their partners become the Holy Beasts only cements this further. Something like that is something that I would expect to see in a fanfiction -- which doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad narrative choice, and like I said, I know it already happened in the novelization. I guess what I'm trying to say is that lots of fans have been wanting to explore the original Chosen Children, and Tri is giving these fans what they want -- and now look what we're stuck with in the official Tri canon. We have Triceramon evolving into Qinglongmon (not confirmed on-screen but it's not hard to figure out which partner evolved into which Holy Beast after seeing Orochimon). I think that's just an awful evolutionary choice, lmao.
    Are the Four Holy Beasts really any more special than Seraphimon or Holydramon? Or Omegamon? Seems like a pretty normal level of 'specialness' for a Chosen Child. It just happened -earlier-, so they got to be the guardian deities.
    Triceramon to Qinglongmon is kind of awful visually, but it perfectly illustrates that lack of special snowflake-ness. The Original Chosen Children really were just regular old Chosen, but they stepped up, sacrificed a comrade, and kept the Digital World safe.

    I just wish that we had more time to really get into it and explore this concept beyond what we've already gotten. Do you think 6 films with the way they've been structured and paced is the best format to deliver this kind of story?
    Tri's pacing is shit. But I love the story they're trying to tell. And most of the emotional moments hit well, so I'm rolling with it. I DO think that you might want to go back and rewatch 1-3 now because there's actually a lot there already in terms of Daigo and Maki being foils/role models to the kids.

    EDIT: Don't you think it's possible to have a story in which the characters DO have to face the fact that there are no adults like them, and they have to figure out for themselves how to live in the world without having either role models or examples to avoid (Maki, I suppose)? I don't exactly want a cautionary tale here.
    Certainly! No story concept is inherently bad! But I think Maki is the most fascinating character to come out of this franchise since Tamers, so I'd hate to lose that just get a story about Taichi having the character arc that essentially Maki and Daigo are already going through (since y'know, they DID grow up having to face the fact that there were no adults like them and at least one of them didn't handle it so well...)

  9. #109
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    This sure explained that one keychain of Bakumon we saw. Plus it did explain that one theory about the 4 Holy Beasts we had too. But what's wrong with Gennai? Is that even Gennai? And we're so in trouble now that creepy evil Gennai made Meicomon freak out. ...If those 4 were the beasts, where did Hunglongmon come from? Did he work in this universe?

  10. #110
    I am Justice Vande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown Neo View Post
    This sure explained that one keychain of Bakumon we saw. Plus it did explain that one theory about the 4 Holy Beasts we had too. But what's wrong with Gennai? Is that even Gennai? And we're so in trouble now that creepy evil Gennai made Meicomon freak out. ...If those 4 were the beasts, where did Hunglongmon come from? Did he work in this universe?
    It is an avatar, he stated that himself. It sure LOOKS like Gennai, but there is still time for a reveal. I suspect it's Vamdemon lol.
    They were the 4 beasts, as for Hunglongmon, he currently isn't in this universe.

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